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Post by Libitine on Jan 15, 2008 11:08:42 GMT
Oh *muses over thread*
Yes that too.
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Accolon
Merlin's Apprentice
Posts: 259
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Post by Accolon on Apr 13, 2008 19:11:25 GMT
I was thinking of piling on Merlin and having yet another critical post on him, but most of the points against him have been covered, and there IS something vaguely appealing about him, or at least, mitigating hatred.
So my theory: Merlin is Stephen Colbert.
That is, Merlin thinks with his gut (or heart) and not with his head. He isn't interested in the truth about what would be good for Britain or make him happy or even what would stop Queen Mab, he's interested in the truthiness of whether his actions are good or bad. So it's more than just mere hypocracy, more than just self-delusion, it's a kind of transcendent, intentional cluelessness.
Furthermore, it helps to remember that the movie is designed to make Merlin look cool. It's got the wrong title ("Merlin", instead of "Queen Mab" or "The Tragically Heroic Adventures of the Great and Illustrious Queen of the Old Ways"), the movie is narrated by Merlin, it's all from his point of view, focuses on his big action scenes, and so forth.
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Post by Libitine on Apr 13, 2008 20:38:50 GMT
Wha--- Colbert? That is so random. But I do agree. . . It is from his POV and I bet if Mab had told the story it would be majorly different with Merlin as the source of all evil. . . hey! How cool would that be btw? Not Merlin as the source of all evil, but the movie told from Mab's POV.
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Post by Mabforever on May 12, 2009 19:58:04 GMT
Not Merlin as the source of all evil, but the movie told from Mab's POV. Oooooh now there's a thought. I'm the opposite of Mab when it comes to Merlin. She loved him but hated him to where as I don't love or hate him.
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Post by himiko on Apr 28, 2011 18:28:11 GMT
Having gone back and reread my initial post in this thread, I have to admit, my feelings towards Merlin have warmed somewhat. Don't get me wrong- I still adore Mab, and, if I could have reversed the final outcome, totally would have done, and hell to small matters like Britain did actually become a Christian country... screw historical accuracy! - but, yeah. I've come to like Merlin a lot more as a character. Going to be honest, I think I have to credit a lot of that to fanfiction XD Merlin has his flaws- in plentiful supply- but I think he reacts in quite a "human" way to the events around him. He is selfish at times, he doesn't see Mab's point of view, or the fact that her outlook differs drastically from his. He doesn't question the ease with which he finds Lancelot, etc. But, given that he doesn't have the foresight of how the Arthurian legends play out, that most of the viewers will have, nor the ability to see Mab etc. actions and motivations that are also shown more to the viewer, he reacts in, at the very least, a realistic way. Over the years, he ages, his goals change from avoiding Mab, to actively destroying her, to trying to bring about peace in Britain. He mellows in his feelings towards Mab, though I don't deny that he's probably still spurred on, to an extent, at least, by her actions. I would have preferred to see a little more questioning of his attitudes towards Mab and the Old Ways in later life- and its quite nice to see at least some of that in the novel. Also, lately a lot of my favourite fanfics have been ones with a Mab/Merlin dynamic- whether shippy or otherwise. So, yeah, a fangirl's bias once again rears its head
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Post by Mabforever on Apr 28, 2011 22:57:58 GMT
Having gone back and reread my initial post in this thread, I have to admit, my feelings towards Merlin have warmed somewhat. Don't get me wrong- I still adore Mab, and, if I could have reversed the final outcome, totally would have done, and hell to small matters like Britain did actually become a Christian country... screw historical accuracy! - but, yeah. I've come to like Merlin a lot more as a character. Going to be honest, I think I have to credit a lot of that to fanfiction XD
LoL well it's late and at this point in time I can not be bothered looking back at my old posts so I'll put it this way. I am more obsessed with Mab than ever before she is my idol and I love her dearly ;D Merlin....same boat as you, if I watched the film again I'd hate him but now I quite like him sort of, and yes it's totally down to fanfic. It makes me perceive him in a different way, and he's much more appealing and likes Mab more in fics.
Merlin has his flaws- in plentiful supply- but I think he reacts in quite a "human" way to the events around him. He is selfish at times, he doesn't see Mab's point of view, or the fact that her outlook differs drastically from his. He doesn't question the ease with which he finds Lancelot, etc. But, given that he doesn't have the foresight of how the Arthurian legends play out, that most of the viewers will have, nor the ability to see Mab etc. actions and motivations that are also shown more to the viewer, he reacts in, at the very least, a realistic way. Over the years, he ages, his goals change from avoiding Mab, to actively destroying her, to trying to bring about peace in Britain. He mellows in his feelings towards Mab, though I don't deny that he's probably still spurred on, to an extent, at least, by her actions. I would have preferred to see a little more questioning of his attitudes towards Mab and the Old Ways in later life- and its quite nice to see at least some of that in the novel.
Mmmmmmm, he does react in a human way, but I still feel that he is sometimes unnecessary in what he does. For me it's hard to understand why he'd ever try to kill Mab. But I dunno if I were in Merlin's shoes and been told that this woman who I had never known was taking me from the one person I found comfort in and she had killed my mother would I have been so reciptive of Mab? It's hard to say but I'd probably be the same as him, just very angry and looking for someone to blame. I put the way Merlin's acts down to Puddle's really, he's constantly manipulated by her. Yet I dont think it would have killed him to put more thought into why Mab does what she does. He condemns her instantly all the time without the slightest thought that there is a reason for it.
Also, lately a lot of my favourite fanfics have been ones with a Mab/Merlin dynamic- whether shippy or otherwise. So, yeah, a fangirl's bias once again rears its head
Lmao yes Im totally the same, see with fanfics you get explore Mab and Merlin much more plus you can insight of there thoughts and feelings at the time. I love like in films you can actually see whats happening and hear them yet fics and books give you a totally different insight.
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Post by himiko on Apr 28, 2011 23:45:11 GMT
Oh, indeed, I agree that his actions were far from perfect. I would have thought that later in the film, when Mab's actions against him are further in the past, then he could have tried to consider things more from her point of view- if only so that he could try and neutralise the threat from someone who, let's be honest, is probably the biggest threat to Merlin and Arthur's vision of a perfect Britain.
Actually, I might start a thread to that extent...
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Post by Mabforever on Apr 29, 2011 0:05:04 GMT
Oh, indeed, I agree that his actions were far from perfect.Matricide is not an attractive quality I have no idea what Nimue see's in him. I would have thought that later in the film, when Mab's actions against him are further in the past, then he could have tried to consider things more from her point of view- if only so that he could try and neutralise the threat from someone who, let's be honest, is probably the biggest threat to Merlin and Arthur's vision of a perfect Britain.You'd think perhaps we just read too much into this film and it's characters. :L Maybe as Miranda says it is as simple as good and evil, but I think Mab could have so much more to her it's just guess work at who Mab truly is. Perhaps the only one who could really tell you is James Mab is what we make her. Actually, I might start a thread to that extent...LoL go for it, no one here's gonna complain about some revival.
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Post by himiko on Apr 29, 2011 17:10:06 GMT
Nimue's a fairly devout Christian, though, and she becomes moreso as the film progresses (one might argue, until Mab makes her a rather tempting offer, and she puts religion aside). That, and she was a beautiful women, until Mab scarred her, and now she's ashamed to be seen. So, whether matricide is an attractive quality or not probably doesn't enter into it with Nimue, in her eyes, Mab is a bad guy, and Merlin is entitled to fight against her. Hmmm, maybe we do read too much into the film and characters, you're right, lol That said, in the film (even Miranda admits this) Mab doesn't start off as an "evil" character, one could argue she's trying to do a good thing, things just go wrong and she doesn't react to them "well". I wouldn't say its as simple as good vs. evil, at least as far as Merlin and Mab go- not early on, at least. Human vs. magic, perhaps... I do think that the story was constrained by rating and length, though. I mean, a family film about the Arthurian legends, ending with Merlin in an alliance with someone who he swore vengeance against, who scarred his lover for life? There's only so much moral ambiguity that's going to be included, at the end of the day, there's always going to be a fairly "simplistic" outcome, unfortunately. Similarly with length, introducing a plot where Merlin/Mab try to make peace would either require lengthening the film, or removing even more of the Camelot-story (Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot, Morgan, Mordred, etc.) than they did already. I'd love to have seen it as a series with a darker tone, and a little less black and white- but the chances of it getting funded to be made with a similar budget would be minimal. So I guess I've just answered my own question as to why Merlin wouldn't. It's depressingly meta, however XD In terms of his character and the plot, it would have reflected better on him to make a sort of peace Thread has been made, and that post I just made above I should perhaps have put in there XD
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Post by Mabforever on May 1, 2011 21:15:06 GMT
Nimue's a fairly devout Christian, though, and she becomes moreso as the film progresses (one might argue, until Mab makes her a rather tempting offer, and she puts religion aside). Two faced or what That, and she was a beautiful women, until Mab scarred her, and now she's ashamed to be seen. So, whether matricide is an attractive quality or not probably doesn't enter into it with Nimue, in her eyes, Mab is a bad guy, and Merlin is entitled to fight against her.It's totally out of order. She hates magick, yet doesn't mind being healed by it, nor being with Merlin, she says she's Christian fair enough but she has double standards. She hates magick blames Mab but if it can give her beauty back and a lover she's ok for it to do that. Hmmm, maybe we do read too much into the film and characters, you're right, lol That said, in the film (even Miranda admits this) Mab doesn't start off as an "evil" character, one could argue she's trying to do a good thing, things just go wrong and she doesn't react to them "well". I wouldn't say its as simple as good vs. evil, at least as far as Merlin and Mab go- not early on, at least. Human vs. magic, perhaps...lol well it's Mab we want to discuss all possibilities. Where does Miranda say this? I would say it is lol the problem is both Merlin and Mab are good and evil and they are fighting to the point it's good and evil vs good and evil. I do think that the story was constrained by rating and length, though. I mean, a family film about the Arthurian legends, ending with Merlin in an alliance with someone who he swore vengeance against, who scarred his lover for life? There's only so much moral ambiguity that's going to be included, at the end of the day, there's always going to be a fairly "simplistic" outcome, unfortunately.Yes that is a fair point but once again I'd like to say Merlin 98 would have done much much much better as a tv series. And yeah probably put on later at night so much more could have been done with more room for moving. Similarly with length, introducing a plot where Merlin/Mab try to make peace would either require lengthening the film, or removing even more of the Camelot-story (Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot, Morgan, Mordred, etc.) than they did already. I'd love to have seen it as a series with a darker tone, and a little less black and white- but the chances of it getting funded to be made with a similar budget would be minimal.Exactly, we'd get to explore that plus Mordred's fixation with Mab. Morgan and Frik's relationship. How everything would have panned out religion wise. So much lost with such a fantastic cast. Most importantly so much more Mab time. I mean your never gonna get Miranda as Mab ever again and it truly is a treat. So I guess I've just answered my own question as to why Merlin wouldn't. It's depressingly meta, however XD In terms of his character and the plot, it would have reflected better on him to make a sort of peace I think I've repeated what you said with different wording pmsl. What do you expect with a two person Merlin 1998 analysis. Thread has been made, and that post I just made above I should perhaps have put in there XDChecked it out.
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Post by himiko on May 2, 2011 1:05:07 GMT
Regarding Nimue: Yeah- I don't know whether it was intentional, but she did turn out as quite a weak character. She gets scarred, she's ashamed to go outside. She's in Avalon, she decides to become a nun. Mab offers her healing and peace with Merlin, and she renounces all that and takes Mab's offer. She's pretty easily led. Miranda said that about Mab in the interview with her in the shooting script book of Merlin (she might also have said it in the "Magical Making of Merlin" documentary, which is on some of the DVD versions of Merlin). I don't have the book with me, but the quote is something like "Mab isn't totally evil, she starts off as quite a beneficial character. Unfortunately, she gets darker later on, and ultimately uses her magic to achieve very negative ends, I'm afraid." AHA! Just realised, the interview is on the MRAP main website in full- if anyone wants to read it, it's here: www.miranda-richardson.com/mrart02.htmlWould have loved to have seen some scenes expanded on. Part I, I thought, did a pretty good job fitting the story in (though I would have welcomed more of Merlin's experiences in the Land of Magic, and such), but Part II seemed a little rushed in places, it could easily have been split into two parts, IMO- expanding the Camelot story, so its more than a token background story, have some of the characters interact more. Having a longer series still, and having a darker tone- YES, very much so. Its rife with moral ambiguity potential. And, if the fandom is anything to go by, lots and lots of sex
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Post by Mabforever on May 5, 2011 22:47:00 GMT
Regarding Nimue: Yeah- I don't know whether it was intentional, but she did turn out as quite a weak character. She gets scarred, she's ashamed to go outside. She's in Avalon, she decides to become a nun. Mab offers her healing and peace with Merlin, and she renounces all that and takes Mab's offer. She's pretty easily led.In short we dont like Nimue she sucks, yet Merlin tv series Nimue she's actually not bad and I reckon Mab would have liked her alot better :L Miranda said that about Mab in the interview with her in the shooting script book of Merlin (she might also have said it in the "Magical Making of Merlin" documentary, which is on some of the DVD versions of Merlin). I don't have the book with me, but the quote is something like "Mab isn't totally evil, she starts off as quite a beneficial character. Unfortunately, she gets darker later on, and ultimately uses her magic to achieve very negative ends, I'm afraid."Yeah I have saw the interviews there are links to them oh good gods I loved them I love when she talks as normal dressed as Mab and stuff I think it's so amazing plus the Mab pic. AHA! Just realised, the interview is on the MRAP main website in full- if anyone wants to read it, it's here: www.miranda-richardson.com/mrart02.htmlOMG had never read that before loved it. I'd love to question her more about her role as Mab. Would have loved to have seen some scenes expanded on. Part I, I thought, did a pretty good job fitting the story in (though I would have welcomed more of Merlin's experiences in the Land of Magic, and such), agreed. but Part II seemed a little rushed in places, it could easily have been split into two parts, IMO- expanding the Camelot story, so its more than a token background story, have some of the characters interact more.Yeh agreed, It's probably down to the fact it was so long already and it wasn't like they had spare time due to the fact it wasn't a series Having a longer series still, and having a darker tone- YES, very much so. Its rife with moral ambiguity potential. And, if the fandom is anything to go by, lots and lots of sex EXACTLY IT WOULD ROCK PLUS AGAIN WE ALL NEED MABAGENESS xx Attachments:
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Post by himiko on May 5, 2011 23:00:58 GMT
Yeah, BBC Nimueh was a bit Mab-like in some aspects. I don't think she was a goddess, but she was an uber-powerful sorceress, living apart from the human world. She was fighting to stop Uther killing her people, and used darker measures. I can definitely see some parallels. I wasn't a huge fan of her, though, I think it was the actress playing her, she didn't really "click" for me, though she wasn't bad.
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Post by Mabforever on May 5, 2011 23:37:34 GMT
Yeah, BBC Nimueh was a bit Mab-like in some aspects. I don't think she was a goddess, but she was an uber-powerful sorceress, living apart from the human world. She was fighting to stop Uther killing her people, and used darker measures. I can definitely see some parallels. I wasn't a huge fan of her, though, I think it was the actress playing her, she didn't really "click" for me, though she wasn't bad.
Yes she was and no I dont think she was a goddess either, but yeah an uber powerful sorceress, again yes she was :L Yes there are and Im the same lol. Um lemme see I have saw that actress in a lot of things and I have nothing against her she made an interesting Nimue but I think she was as mis cast as Helen McCrory as Narcissa Malfoy.
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Post by sleepyqueenie on Dec 8, 2012 13:00:32 GMT
Let's talk about our favourite Merlins. I like Sam Neill, Michael Byrne, Joseph Fiennes, Ben Kingsley, the Disney one and Nicol Williamson as Merlin. More or less in that order. The Merlin I enjoyed most as a child was the one from King Arthur's disasters.
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