Mab/Vortigern (FTW!)

[Lane of Magic]

Ahem, I'm not biased at all...

I simply love these two characters separately, and all the more together.

But I’ll start with another small fragment of interview.

“"Miranda Richardson's character [Mab] is sort of the queen of the old ways - she's a wizard in her own right. She gives me a teardrop when we say goodbye, which is really sweet - I think it's going to be very interesting to see how the audience is going to take it," Hauer revealed.”

(And my totally unbiased and blunt answer would be “Unfinished!!!” Also, ditto on the sweet part, although I’m sure neither of the two charries would like to be perceived that way.)

Anyway, regarding the pairing, here’s the thread to state your opinion, what you like and what you dislike about it.

On a slightly different note, they’re obviously very much alike, their personalities clash a lot etc. And they usually tend to try see how they can use the other in their own plans, although the manipulation/bickering does seem to be put aside when they have to face a common enemy. The question is, what is most likely to happen if, say, things go well for both of them? Are they going to realise that it’s indeed better if they work together and fight their enemies instead of each other? And, more importantly, even if they do realise that much, is either of them going to admit it? In other words, how long before they’re at each other’s throats again? *is not blatantly trying to figure out a certain given situation, not at all*

[Accolon]

Vortigern must submit. He must submit his will to Mab. He must worship her, and accept his dependence on her.

Since he won't do this, he'll die. He won't even accept her gift, because it would mean he would be acknowledging his dependence.

[himiko]

Well, you already know what I think of this pairing XD but in the joys of having a new thread, I get to speak on it once again.

OK, I don't really like it, I'll be perfectly honest. In fact, let me be even more honest and change two words around there: I really don't like it.

To phrase this post as an answer to Lane's: I think their personalities are alike in some ways- they're both proud and stubborn, and they're both willing to manipulate the other. The problem is with the "if things go well for both of them" theory is that frequently one of them is the architect of things NOT going well for the other- Vortigern betrays Mab in refusing to assist the cause of the Old Ways, making her own situation even worse, Mab manages to bring about swift ends to all his marriages, denying him the chance to beget a child and secure his legacy in that way, they work together and get Nimue burned, which doesn't have the intended effect for either of them, and then Vortigern refuses to carry that crystal into battle and buggers up not only Mab's plans, but his own life. If, however, we assume that things go well for each of them, then it;s hard to say what the outcome would be. I think there would always be an element of bickering there, and perhaps of mistrust, and I certainly don't think either of them would say, in so many words that they should work together instead of fighting each other, because, as you have identified, both are proud people.

Though I don't like the pairing, I've always imagined their relationship to be more based on the physical, rather than emotional, if it took place- they seem to be physically attracted to each other (and hey, it's Mab, who wouldn't be???), and they seem to have a sort of grudging respect for the other- perhaps because they share certain personality traits?- even though their beliefs and purposes are often at odds- Vortigern doesn't believe in anything- including the Old Ways, and Mab wants to restore herself to power, and doesn't much care how many kings she has to destroy to do it. At this stage in the story, she still wants Merlin to come around and take the throne. I can see that, even if I don;t like it. The problem with me seems to come with the idea of them being "in love", I guess is the closest description- not because I find it a more distasteful idea than the first, it's simply not something I can see from the two of them, I guess. I had a convo on MSN once- I think it might have been with Joel- and we were discussing Mab's relationships, and I believe the phrase "rampant sex and no emotional attachment" was used. Perhaps that's a little too strong- as I said, they do seem to have a respect for each other, an interest in each other's thinking, but that phrase is still the closest to how I perceive their relationship. Of course, that's going to be different for different people.

As to why I find the pairing in general, whatever form it takes, to be not to my taste, I think I may have said once in the general pairing thread- I shall try and dig it back out.

[Lane of Magic]

Accolon: Vortigern “submit”? Hahaha, well, obviously she’d have an eternity of waiting for him to do that, or “believe” in her Old Ways, or “worship” her. I agree, that's veeery unlikely (if not downright impossible). Still, it’s exactly his stubborness not to believe, not to worship her blindly, that makes him different from everyone else.

Himiko, I really liked your first choice of words better. *ded* *chuckles*

OK, the start probably could not have been worse – what with the alleged betrayal and all. I still find said betrayal really odd, not necessarily because it would be OOC for Vortigern (although it would, imo, because he would rather have a powerful ally, than an enemy), but because they simply did not mention anything about it later on (and they had plenty of opportunities to do so. For instance, you randomly go give him a tear that’s supposed to save his life, and don’t even ask him why the hell he betrayed you?!).

The part with sacrificing Nimue was indeed what I’d call an epic fail, no offense to either. Xd

But that makes it understandable why he would refuse the tear later – he’d already trusted her rather blindly (especially considering his own standards), there was really no way he would do the same “mistake” again.

I’ll agree that they’re physically attracted to each other (and be just as unbiased as you, and say hey, it’s Vortigern, who wouldn’t be???), but also quite intrigued by the other – Vortigern won’t believe in her, whatever Mab did, which is really not something she’s ever dealt with before, and Mab will always be the “goddess”, and in a way superior to him, which is definitely something new for him too.

As for the “love” part, they really didn’t have any time to even potentially get to it (I mean, just think about it – they get two scenes in the movie, and three in the books. WTF, right?) However, if I’m to take the books into account, it was Mab who actually mentioned something about it, surprisingly enough, and in quite a blurted out manner (here’s the quote, “ “No!” Mab cried. “Vortigern betrayed me – and now Merlin? Why must everything I love turn to ash?” ” Her own words – at least she wasn’t in denial. Ahem… DX). Add to that the fact that she would miss him etc and I happily rest my case.

For his part, Vortigern didn’t really say much, only implied at most, “You’ve shaped my whole life, but you never trusted me enough to give me victory.” And that was at a point where he was no longer the big bad warrior, but something more (yeah, who would have thought he would start giving speeches of wisdom? But I suppose that being in such a dire situation made them both less preocupied in quips and more sincere with each other).

[himiko]

Jul 15, 2008 5:45:25 GMT Lane of Magic said:

As for the “love” part, they really didn’t have any time to even potentially get to it (I mean, just think about it – they get two scenes in the movie, and three in the books. WTF, right?) However, if I’m to take the books into account, it was Mab who actually mentioned something about it, surprisingly enough, and in quite a blurted out manner (here’s the quote, “ “No!” Mab cried. “Vortigern betrayed me – and now Merlin? Why must everything I love turn to ash?” ” Her own words – at least she wasn’t in denial. Ahem… DX). Add to that the fact that she would miss him etc and I happily rest my case.

Hmmm, yes, but I always found this odd- Mab says this before her later meetings with Vortigern take place, and her dealings with Vortigern, even the first meeting on the ship, seem far more impersonal than the later encounters do. If the author wanted it to work as a declaration of love for Vortigern, then it was located at entirely the wrong point in the story to make it vaguely realistic, for me. And as for the missing part- well, I'd miss my relatives, and my friends, and possibly even my lazy bastard flatmates if they died. Hell, I was sad when Robert Jordan died, and I knew nothing about him beyond his books. Doesn't mean I was in love with them.

Still, I guess it's open to interpretation either way- I guess that's the problem with characters like Vortigern, and, say, Morgan- they get enough screen time that people are genuinely interested in their characters, but little enough so that a lot of stuff is mostly left to the imaginings and bias of the various viewers. The somewhat lacking writing style of the books probably don't help here, either.

[Lane of Magic]

Hm. No, I don’t think it was meant as any sort of declaration – it was at a point where she was positively exasperated, desperate even, because everything just went so wrong, so in a way it just “slipped out”. But at any rate, she did say it, whatever the reason. (shoot/throttle/stab Mallory, not me, btw )

Maybe the writer just skipped forwards a few scenes? Obviously, Mab would have observed him enough time to choose him and not some other random warrior (because I’m sure there were plenty of other options), so he must have made quite an impression.

But I agree that it doesn’t really add up, if you think about it, but here I’m referring mainly to him “betraying” her – it simply doesn’t make any sense, however stupid or arrogant Vortigern might have been: not only did she hand him Britain, but she wasn’t exactly indifferent to him – she merely rested her hand on his arm, and he felt that same surge of emotion he only felt in the heat of battle. Technically, that was the first time he saw her, so that says a lot! (And yes, I’ve been rereading some fragments, since my other post, I admit.)

As for the missing part, I can’t say I do miss my (dead) relatives (I’m quite a bitch, I know xd). But the idea was that she actually felt something about it, as opposed to being completely indifferent and show no emotion whatsoever (which, again, says a lot, considering that “made of stone” is how the writer was trying to portray her).

EDIT: This SO should be a MSN talk, seeing it’s as batshit as the “hot” vs. “beautiful” thing, but I was thinking… isn’t there a difference between being “in love” and just “loving” somebody?

I tend to see the “in love” thing as infatuation most of all: you tend to be completely blind to their defects, and want them, and squee/melt whatever they do (ok, especially when they smile at you etc, but random violence looks cute also), whereas in the case of “loving” somebody, you want them, obviously, but you’re not all giddy about them, and the fact that you love them doesn’t stop them from irritating the hell out of you at times. However, when it comes down to it, you don’t want them to, say, get themselves killed in a really stupid way, so you can but swallow your pride and go warn them, useless as it might prove. You simply have to do it, just because. …Does that make sense, just a little? Xd

[Accolon]

I'd forgotten about the book stuff. I guess in my mind I think more of the "True" story, as will be put out by the Ministry of Truth after Mab completes her takeover of our world. In this corrected draft of the story, all passages that might mislead a reader into thinking our Great and Wonderful Queen might be incompetent, error-prone, or subject to mortal failings will be removed. In this document, the Mab/Vortigern story will be a cautionary tale of Vortigern's failure to obey Mab, and the terrible consequences of his disobedience. In no sense will Mab have made a mistake or error in judgment, as she will have predicted his error and accounted for it and used it cleverly to further her aims.

;D

[Lane of Magic]

Heh, I think this might be a bit hard to turn around, so she might choose not to comment at all on the matter. xd

[tosca]

Jul 16, 2008 11:18:28 GMT Lane of Magic said:

EDIT: This SO should be a MSN talk, seeing it’s as batshit as the “hot” vs. “beautiful” thing

Heh. Heh. Heh.

I tend to see the “in love” thing as infatuation most of all: you tend to be completely blind to their defects, and want them, and squee/melt whatever they do (ok, especially when they smile at you etc, but random violence looks cute also), whereas in the case of “loving” somebody, you want them, obviously, but you’re not all giddy about them, and the fact that you love them doesn’t stop them from irritating the hell out of you at times. However, when it comes down to it, you don’t want them to, say, get themselves killed in a really stupid way, so you can but swallow your pride and go warn them, useless as it might prove. You simply have to do it, just because. …Does that make sense, just a little? Xd

Hm, I doubt I'm the best person to answer this but it can't be so clear cut as all that. You can "love" people platonically, sentimentally, unwillingly, and about a hundred other different ways. You can be selfish-in-love, which is all the giddiness and etc in a fling, like... Romeo and Juliet, for example. And I guess there's an unselfish kind of being in love, when it's not *just* about the giddiness and etc but about........everything else. But I don't think the squeeing and grinning and melting should die out just because being in love matures into loving someone. In fact, it rarely does, in fiction at least... This is a really bad time to get the urge to type "", isn't it? <<

In MV's case, I can't imagine them ever being giddy, or misty eyed about each other etc. Neither can I imagine them having that trusting, comfortable bond, the security of a deeper relationship. So I guess nah, I don't really see them truly loving each other or really being in love, and they clearly don't need each other. They will always put more important priorities first, so they can never have that crazy, irrational, devil-may-care attitude of romanticized lovers. But hey, like you said, we don't know what would have happened if they had been allowed more time to discover each other, and I still think they're a cute couple, bless their argumentative, stubborn little souls.

[Lane of Magic]

Haha, you really did get bored last night DX (and w00t, amazing typing accuracy)

It’s never that simple – the whole idea was a veeery simplified concept. Naturally, the squeeing/melting doesn’t have to die out, the point was that in some cases it’s never there to begin with, but that doesn’t mean that there’s nothing there at all (case in point – MV xd).
_{And I can already see you go all “” *chuckles* So, you were saying…}

And good points, too!
Well, it’s always going to be some love/hate thing between them, whether it’s because of whatever things they did to each other, or simply because of their natures (as in – he’s never going to “believe”, she’s never going to… be anything less than her stubborn proud self etc).
And, of course, supposedly there will always be something else as main focus – either he being paranoid about some randomer getting his throne, or she obsessed with restoring the Old Ways (and if you remove most of that, then… … … no, I obviously have no idea how either would react XXD But at any rate, more time to get to any of that would indeed have been wonderful).
Not to mention, it’s their constant bickering/pride/stubbornness that makes them so cute. *is not looking all “roll1”*

[Accolon]

Hmm, iirc from the director's commetary or some such, that scene was not so supposed to be so touchy-feely. But in rehersal the actors spontaneously decided to "go there."

Now if I imagine myself trying to get into character of Mab or Vortigern in that scene, the first thing that comes to mind is a sense of loneliness and isolation. They each have an unfilled need, that can't be fulfilled, but only if they could breach the unbreathable gap between them and comfort each other.

[Libitine]

Okay, this is my absolute favorite pairing and since I saw a whole thread devoted to it, I just hit 'post reply' without rading anything, I apologize. I will go back and read.

But anyway, I think that though too alike or very different, I think that in a way they compliment each other and when together they could balance each other out. They are both stubborn and power-hungry and I bet if they worked together for once (in more ways than one ) they would have truly helped each other out. Then again, they both have a TON of pride, which in turn would prevent any alliance.

OF COURSE you can't see Mab or Voritgern all giddy and lovey and excited about 'dating'. lol. Can you imagine him bringing her flowers? lol. I am not saying that the 'relationship' would be based completely on sex and power but . . . . . okay, yes, I am saying that. Haha.

[himiko]

Jul 23, 2008 2:50:44 GMT @tosca said:

In MV's case, I can't imagine them ever being giddy, or misty eyed about each other etc. Neither can I imagine them having that trusting, comfortable bond, the security of a deeper relationship. So I guess nah, I don't really see them truly loving each other or really being in love, and they clearly don't need each other. They will always put more important priorities first, so they can never have that crazy, irrational, devil-may-care attitude of romanticized lovers.

Yeah, what she said. Tis more coherent than what I attempt to say XD

If they were in a situation that allowed them more time to discover each other... I don't know, I tend to think they would really piss each other off, LOL. But that is perhaps due to the way I see the pairing working.

Also, Libitine- yes, I think sex and power is perhaps what I see between Mab and Vortigern, too.

[tosca]

Jul 26, 2008 0:22:38 GMT himiko said:

Yeah, what she said. Tis more coherent than what I attempt to say XD

*finds this hilariously funny considering the typos she'd been making only awhile before writing said message*

If you agree with the sex and power..... are you agreeing that V has sex appeal? ;D

[Libitine]

Jul 26, 2008 23:08:50 GMT @tosca said:

Jul 26, 2008 0:22:38 GMT himiko said:

Yeah, what she said. Tis more coherent than what I attempt to say XD

*finds this hilariously funny considering the typos she'd been making only awhile before writing said message*

If you agree with the sex and power..... are you agreeing that V has sex appeal? ;D

Well I sure as hell am. ;D