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Post by Mabforever on Mar 27, 2010 16:15:47 GMT
Mab admits to Nimue she loves Merlin but hates him too. So what about Merlin? Do you think he reciprocates the love/hate. Yes he spends his whole time trying to make her disappear BUT at the beginning he does make a lil attempt to help her. Had Ambrosia sent him back he probably would have, plus they do have a bond whether they like it or not.
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Post by fishinthesea on Mar 30, 2010 9:41:45 GMT
Uh tough question - I think you are right, they have a love/hate relationship. But also, Merlin has a very strong human side in him, not only because he was born by a mortal woman, but also because he was raised by one. so he has a very human conception of love as well - and Mab (as Merlin has said himself) hurt everyone he ever loved.
I mean, it would have worked out if only Puddles hadn't messed with it all.
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Post by Mabforever on Mar 30, 2010 13:27:01 GMT
Yeah I remember his line after Mab dies about everyone he ever loved or who had loved him was gone. I wonder if Mab is included in this, being that it happened right after she for want of a better word died.
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Post by maellowyn on Apr 17, 2010 7:57:26 GMT
Uh tough question - I think you are right, they have a love/hate relationship. But also, Merlin has a very strong human side in him, not only because he was born by a mortal woman, but also because he was raised by one. so he has a very human conception of love as well - and Mab (as Merlin has said himself) hurt everyone he ever loved. I mean, it would have worked out if only Puddles hadn't messed with it all. I totally agree with the last line - it is ALL Puddles fault! I mean she made him believe Mab killed his mother... Which she obviously did not - and for letting someone die, here I like to quote one of the early scenes: Young Merlin: "If I'm half mortal - will I die?" Mab: "In the fullness of time - we can not change that!" So it means Mab could have done nothing to help Merlins mother or Ambrosia even if she had wanted to - or else she also could have saved Mordred. - So if Puddles had not told Merlin all this crap he would never have sworn to defeat Mab - the rest is a chain of causes and reactions. .. and I somehow think Merlin just tried to deny this knowledge, but in his heart he knew, that actually he wasn't right in blaming her for everything, it just was the easiest way for him.
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Post by Mabforever on Apr 17, 2010 13:39:52 GMT
DOWN WITH PUDDLES !!!!!!!!!!
She's such a lying bitch.
That's a fair point, now that I think about it she couldn't have done nothing to stop any fo them from dying or she would have done so with Mordred. Merlin should have realised that when Mordred died too. And if he did and still shose to do what he did it just makes him worse than Mab.
New thought, when it comes to Ambrosia, she did kind of die because of Mab, but she was already sick. And I think Mab genuinely didn't mean to kill her.
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Post by Arwen17 on May 13, 2010 22:53:41 GMT
New thought, when it comes to Ambrosia, she did kind of die because of Mab, but she was already sick. And I think Mab genuinely didn't mean to kill her. I agree. Mab lost her temper, but hadn't really meant to cause Ambrosia a heartattack. More than anything, I think she was trying to scare Ambrosia into submission. After Merlin believed Mab had killed both his mother and Ambrosia, he swore his oath, BUT he did not immediately storm off seeking a way to destroy Mab. He just sat in his hut for years doing nothing to help or hurt her. It wasn't until Mab provoked him again, by sending Vortigern after him and hurting Nimue, that Merlin swore he would "defeat her". In the beginning all he did was promise never to help her basically, but Mab pushed it further because she didn't know any other way to get him to leave the forest and then he actively started pursing her destruction. I really think she should have left him alone or found a better way to involve him without increasing his loathing towards her. When Mab hurt Nimue, that was like the last straw with Merlin.
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Post by Mabforever on May 13, 2010 23:29:51 GMT
Personally I think she did Merlin a favour with Nimue...I really hated her. With all that I think we have made a good conclusion, Mab is not a people person, I think Mab should have brought Merlin up. Yeah it would have screwed him up but apparently she had more love back then so ............ (Btw replying to Cid)
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Post by himiko on Apr 28, 2011 17:28:52 GMT
Hmmm... I think Merlin's feelings are a lot more ambiguous than Mab's.
If we take James Mallory's statement in the novel to be canon (and, to be fair, there are indeed a few instances where the canon of novel and film don't match up), that Mab and her kind cannot lie, then we can take her statement that she loves and hates Merlin as truth, but even if not, there is other evidence to suggest it- her statements in the film, the fact that she fools herself because she wants Merlin to come back to her (Frik notes how unusual this is), the fact that, despite what a dangerous opponent Merlin could potentially be, she takes no moves to kill Merlin until she loses Mordred.
As far as Merlin goes, we don't really have a lot to go on. Merlin's certainly a lot more committed to Mab's destruction than she is to his, and he's certainly angry with her. I'd say he certainly hates her for a goodly portion of Part I (after Ambrosia's death, certainly after Nimue's). In Part II, I think Merlin's focus shifts to putting a "good king" on the throne of Britain, rather than his revenge on Mab. In the book, he notes that he no longer hates Mab, but he pities her (this happens sometime before Mordred arrives in Camelot). And, of course, we have the line "Everyone I ever loved, and whoever loved me, all gone..." immediately following Mab's death. I think Merlin's hatred definitely existed. I think he believed her when she said she loved him. Whether he loved her back, I don't know- I'd like to think he did, and that he mourned her loss in some way, as well as the others he lost. He certainly looked regretful as she died. Though if I'm to put aside my preference, there are some other explanations for this:
- Having fulfilled his goal, and defeated Mab, the loss of Arthur and Nimue has finally hit him, and he's grieving for them, rather than for Mab. - He pities Mab, and wishes it hadn't had to come to this- but, as I noted before, pity doesn't neccessarily mean he loves her.
I suppose you could make a case for either, really. It would be interesting to have the point of view of someone who isn't really a Mab fan at this point, and see what they would make of it :S
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Post by Mabforever on Apr 28, 2011 21:09:27 GMT
Hmmm... I think Merlin's feelings are a lot more ambiguous than Mab's.Which is understandable as he is part human. If we take James Mallory's statement in the novel to be canon (and, to be fair, there are indeed a few instances where the canon of novel and film don't match up), that Mab and her kind cannot lie, then we can take her statement that she loves and hates Merlin as truth, but even if not, there is other evidence to suggest it- her statements in the film, the fact that she fools herself because she wants Merlin to come back to her (Frik notes how unusual this is), the fact that, despite what a dangerous opponent Merlin could potentially be, she takes no moves to kill Merlin until she loses Mordred.Yes you can tell she has always loved him but she has trouble showing it, she's a fae and a queen she wouldn't be expected to show emotion but that doesn't mean she cant feel. Ambrosia said she once could love but no more, now Mab may be very bitter and twisted by I reckon deep down under her ice queen guise her feelings were still there. Like with Vortigern I bet he has emotions, will he show them? No you'd get no respect through showing emotions on a battle field. Uther he gave into his desires of Igraine and he eventually went round the twist. After she looses Mordred she knows herself she's loosing and that she's weak. She hates Merlin for what he's done she wants to hurt him but she can hardly be blamed after wasting so much time trying to get her round she now is at her end. It's horrible to watch. As far as Merlin goes, we don't really have a lot to go on. Merlin's certainly a lot more committed to Mab's destruction than she is to his, and he's certainly angry with her. I'd say he certainly hates her for a goodly portion of Part I (after Ambrosia's death, certainly after Nimue's). In Part II, I think Merlin's focus shifts to putting a "good king" on the throne of Britain, rather than his revenge on Mab. In the book, he notes that he no longer hates Mab, but he pities her (this happens sometime before Mordred arrives in Camelot).Yeah it's almost like they go in reverse he hates her more at the start he hates her more at the end. I dont have the book so as far as that goes Im going by your word :L, but yeah you can see he pities her. And I doubt Mab would be grateful about him having that emotion for her. I think if we cant say he felt some sort of love for Mab we can definitley say she was something special if you like to him. She's a huge part of his life, she gave him life, she waited for him, she told him he was hers and that he had powers, he then spent most of his life trying to hunt her down then near the end pitied her. He would have felt something even if it were not love. And, of course, we have the line "Everyone I ever loved, and whoever loved me, all gone..." immediately following Mab's death. Yeah I noted he picked that precise moment too. I think Merlin's hatred definitely existed. I think he believed her when she said she loved him. Whether he loved her back, I don't know- I'd like to think he did, and that he mourned her loss in some way, as well as the others he lost. He certainly looked regretful as she died.Yeah he hated her but as they say there is a thin line between love and hate Meh I'd like to think he did love her in some way, I think he did mourn her but at the same time he wouldn't hurry to bring her back. I think he just decided her time was up all the "cruelty" needed to end. Would he have tried to save her? No. Bring her back? No. Miss her when she was gone? Probably as I say she was a big part of him, his mother of sorts even if he didn't like it. Though if I'm to put aside my preference, there are some other explanations for this:
- Having fulfilled his goal, and defeated Mab, the loss of Arthur and Nimue has finally hit him, and he's grieving for them, rather than for Mab. - He pities Mab, and wishes it hadn't had to come to this- but, as I noted before, pity doesn't neccessarily mean he loves her.
I suppose you could make a case for either, really. It would be interesting to have the point of view of someone who isn't really a Mab fan at this point, and see what they would make of it :SThose are what could have happened but again Im to Mabiased to say so either and I actually dont know anyone who has seen Merlin who is not a Mab fan. Well I do but they hate her and I mean positively hate her so they would also be biased but in the opposite court. I dont know of a completely neutral party.
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Post by maellowyn on Jan 30, 2014 21:03:55 GMT
love and hate are two emotional feelings that don't exclude each other .. actually they are activated by the same neurological processes and the brain doesn't even differ between those to stages of agitation.. (I just should have posted this in our facts-topic... mmhm)
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Post by Morgan le Fay on Jul 14, 2017 19:45:28 GMT
I don't know if my opinion will be of any worth, but as someone who cares equally for Mab and Merlin, and feels rather neutral about the subject, I've always thought that Merlin both hated and loved Mab. As you have all said, the series all but confirms it with Merlin's narrative, "Everyone I ever loved, and whoever loved me, all gone".
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Post by himiko on Jul 18, 2017 20:04:59 GMT
Always good to get a more neutral opinion!
This is one of the reasons I think Merlin could have benefitted from being split across three parts rather than two (as in, getting an extra episode of similar length, rather than just splitting up the existing content differently). Mab is, after all, Merlin's mother - there's a lot of fertile ground for conflicting emotions to drive Merlin's character development, but it feels like it all gets left to one side, particularly in the second part. The first part gives a bit more detail - we see Mab creating Merlin, him being the vessel of her hopes for survival - over the first episode we see that joy turning to confusion and disappointment as she plots to gets Merlin back and it becomes more apparent that it is unsuccessful. We see Merlin going from cautious unfamiliarity to anger over the damage Mab has wrought on the other parts of his life. But in the second half, both of them are so caught up in the Arthurian bulk of the story that a lot of this is left out. We see a little bit from Mab - her lines about "I love him" to Nimue, her admittance that she was fooling herself over Merlin - but anything on an emotional level from Merlin regarding Mab is largely left to the novels, until "Everyone I ever loved, or whoever loved me..." - because there's been no real emotional lead up to Merlin's decision to take the final battle to Mab since the first part, this feels a bit out of the blue. Does he have similar conflicting feelings about fighting his mother? At what point does his hatred for Mab turn into pity, at what point does it become more about saving the country than destroying Mab? I realise that ultimately this was meant to be a family adventure, not an in depth character piece, but I feel this could have added to the series somewhat.
It's not just this - the Arthurian stuff is run through at pretty breakneck speed. A scene or two more with Merlin and young Arthur would have gone some way towards establishing their friendship (and we could also have seen that change as Merlin goes from being Arthur's tutor and senior, to being one of his advisors and having to defer to him). There would have been time to actually explain on screen what the stone was that Mab and Frik had Morgan place in Arthur's crib, and how it ties in to the Grail quest. It could have included Merlin trying to dissuade Arthur from said quest. We could have had at least one scene where Mab and Morgan actually interact before Morgan's death scene (their lack of communication definitely tells us part of the story - they're not close at all, Morgan's attentions are lavished on Frik, Mab cares only for Mordred - but it would have been interesting to see whether that has been the case from the start, or whether their relationship was somewhat more cordial once upon a time. After all, Morgan is clearly thankful to the Old Ways for her increased quality of life, and she happily refers to Mab as Mordred's Auntie in the earlier scenes). But I would definitely have appreciated a bit more of the Mab/Merlin dynamic being focused on, since their war is, after all, what drives the plot.
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Post by sleepyqueenie on Jul 24, 2017 6:17:43 GMT
I wholeheartedly agree! Merlin should have been made in 3 parts. It needed way more further attention on how Mab-Merlin evolved and I would have like a more proper focus on the Arthurian moments too. Instead of glossing over them "silly Artie is gone now to find the holy grail on a whim" style.
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