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Post by Queen_Mab_of_the_Old_Ways on Aug 14, 2008 21:33:57 GMT
Who indeed are you talking to Libby?
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Post by Lane of Magic on Aug 14, 2008 22:57:07 GMT
You know, long term, perhaps it is wise to put all faiths in you and only you. *muses* OK, I see what you mean – after all, what was Mab doing if not just that? (yes, I know, she was a goddess, he was a mortal, so it’s not exactly the same thing, but you get my point) Still, it’s good to leave one door open. Who knows what the outcome would have been, if he’d just taken the tear, for instance?
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Post by Zoicite on Oct 5, 2008 22:47:14 GMT
He would have survived, that's what.
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Post by Lane of Magic on Oct 8, 2008 19:10:40 GMT
Exactly. ** But then, I suppose the whole storyline would have got thrown off track. Ohwell. Xd
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Post by Zoicite on Oct 15, 2008 21:45:09 GMT
We throw it around and dissect it and sew it back together on a daily basis in here...we must have a million whatifs and AUs and crossovers.
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Post by himiko on Oct 16, 2008 1:34:10 GMT
We throw it around and dissect it and sew it back together on a daily basis in here...we must have a million whatifs and AUs and crossovers. True, true- let's face it, Loke is far more a part of the fandom than, say, Sir Rupert. We fangirls are that awesome XD But yeah, maybe Vortigern would have survived if he had taken the crystal. Perhaps even probably. But it was foretold that he would lose that battle long before the crystal incident. Perhaps it was a foregone conclusion that he would refuse it, and, based on his character, I can believe it.
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Post by Lane of Magic on Oct 16, 2008 23:31:04 GMT
Yes, thank gods for the existence of fics. You really miss Loke, don’t you? (aa)
Also, Himiko, that’s a good point. It actually validates a point I made a few months ago, that Mab had no political/objective reason to go give him that crystal. So I agree that he might well have not won the battle – Mab might have known that. After all, she only said that that tear would protect him, not make him win. Which means that she only wanted him to live at that point. *slow nod* …Yeah, that’s me remaining on topic. More or less.
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Post by himiko on Oct 16, 2008 23:45:14 GMT
Yes, thank gods for the existence of fics. You really miss Loke, don’t you? (aa) Also, Himiko, that’s a good point. It actually validates a point I made a few months ago, that Mab had no political/objective reason to go give him that crystal. So I agree that he might well have not won the battle – Mab might have known that. After all, she only said that that tear would protect him, not make him win. Which means that she only wanted him to live at that point. *slow nod* …Yeah, that’s me remaining on topic. More or less. I do! Don't ye? Hmmm, well, did Mab actually know about that vision? In the books, she didn't know Merlin could see visions until Vortigern told her that he had, so would she neccessarily know the supposed "outcome". I guess it's entirely possible, though I can't see Vortigern broadcasting it to the world. Also, if Vortigern lost the battle, as he went on to do, England's throne would fall to Uther, a Christian, and more than that, the son of one of the kings that had persecuted Mab's religion. That's a pretty damn good political/objective reason, if you ask me. Protecting Vortigern from death for the battle might not have made him win, but it would have made it far harder for the enemy to end the battle just by killing him. They'd have had to whittle his forces down bit by bit, over a far longer battle. Yes, maybe Mab already knew that Uther was "fated to win", but let's face it, if anyone likes to fight against fate, it's Mab, bless her. But who knows?
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Post by Lane of Magic on Oct 16, 2008 23:57:54 GMT
Yes, I’ve already given you my “random” reply. DX
Of course there would have been many other possibilities, if Vortigern remained alive. Obviously, he would not have just stepped down, and of course many interesting plans and plots would have followed. But that was not the focus of what I said.
I just think that she had her reasons not to promise anything more than protection, especially if she looked less than confident for the first time. And that her main desire at the time, and in the given circumstances, was to make sure he remained alive, whether he later on became of any help or not. In that respect, you made it sound as if he would automatically be this great accessory against whoever stood against her, which is so not the case.
1. Do you really think he would have been so very grateful that he remained alive, but lost the battle and possibly the throne and everything he had? I think not. 2. Do you really think Mab would have had the patience to put up with any of that? Again, I doubt it. But despite all that, if they’d had time to bicker their way into agreeing, then yes, I have no doubt that Uther and Merlin and whoever else would have been given a run for their money. However, I can’t see Mab placing her bets on that, so this tear episode still strikes me as something spontaneous.
EDIT: *takes a step back, stares and cracks up* I’m an idiot. I know very well where you stand. You probably know my point of view even better. And yet we’re still debating the same shit, which, funny though it is, it is also pointless if no one else bothers to post. So much for another forum revival XXD *goes to laugh to herself in a corner*
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Accolon
Merlin's Apprentice
Posts: 259
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Post by Accolon on Oct 17, 2008 16:26:54 GMT
He would of sunk to the bottom of the river, but rather than died, he would of been frozen solid and put into a sleep for xx years. Then he'd reawaken for the sequel, maybe as Mab's new champion. Maybe in 21st century Britain
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Post by himiko on Oct 17, 2008 23:27:00 GMT
LOL!! Can you imagine Vortigern in modern day Britain?? *rolls about on floor at mental image*
Aside from anything else, wouldn't he have a little trouble deciphering modern-day English? Bearing in mind that it has changed a fair bit, and the fact that he wasn't originally from Britain in the first place. Saying that, it didn't seem to be a factor in Merlin, so perhaps that would go alright ;D For the rest, however...
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Post by Lane of Magic on Oct 17, 2008 23:32:59 GMT
Then he'd reawaken for the sequel, maybe as Mab's new champion. Hell, that's one sequel I would've watched!!!
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Post by Zoicite on Oct 18, 2008 7:21:42 GMT
Vortigern in Modern Day Britian.....it reminds me of that frog prince movie with Martin Short.
.....All great points. I think though, that Mab is a good judge of character even if she can't see visions, she's been disillusioned to the point that she's cynical, and expects the worst. Probably really tired about all of it, too. Giving him the crystal was probably for a myriad of reasons, all connected to her greater goal.
How happy would Vortigern have been if he had been frozen that long? X3
I wish there was a 10th Kingdom/Merlin crossover that didn't make Mordred randomly hate Mab. Hmm.
Er. Sir Rupert's the horse, right? Wasn't he an actual knight in the round table legends at one point, or did they all just not notice he was a horse the entire time?
I /like/ retracing the same old stuff. It gives a lot of new things to mess about with. And let's face it, we'd all rather be contributing to this sort of essay/discussion than anything from college or the like.
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Post by himiko on Oct 18, 2008 14:36:01 GMT
Vortigern in Modern Day Britian.....it reminds me of that frog prince movie with Martin Short. .....All great points. I think though, that Mab is a good judge of character even if she can't see visions, she's been disillusioned to the point that she's cynical, and expects the worst. Probably really tired about all of it, too. Giving him the crystal was probably for a myriad of reasons, all connected to her greater goal. How happy would Vortigern have been if he had been frozen that long? X3 I wish there was a 10th Kingdom/Merlin crossover that didn't make Mordred randomly hate Mab. Hmm. Yeah, that part of the crossover was puzzling. Up to the point where Mordred died, there was never any signs of him "turning against Mab", and then suddenly he hates her. Odd. But we digress from the topic. Maybe we should open a thread in the fanwork section for fics that we have read outside of the board? LOL, point! I can't see him being that happy about being frozen 1500 years. That's not going to be comfortable at all. @lane: LOL, yes, we do seem to debate quite repetitively here, bless us XD But on the bright side, it does appear to have triggered forum revival! Also, to come back to what ye said, my head feels full of wool, so I may just be mis-comprehending what you said, but when you said about Vortigern being grateful if he kept his life but lost his throne- no, I don't, that's not quite what I meant. I didn't mean him on his own, throneless and armyless would be a great accessory, I merely meant that him remaining alive would have a potentially positive effect on the one upcoming battle- like so: Vortigern and Uther's armies are fighting, etc. and so forth. The battle halts not because every last one of Vortigern's men have died, but because their commander has been killed. Vortigern dies, Uther assumes the throne. Now, imagine Vortigern has this crystal, and is protected from death (assuming it works to this extent). Now, this is no guarantee of victory, I know, but it's more likely that the fight would have continued until either Uther himself was slain (his side loses, Vortigern keeps the throne), or one side gained enough advantage in number or position to make the other retreat or surrender. A longer battle, even if Vortigern's side would have lost in the end, would have cost Uther far more men, and even if Vortigern hadn't been grateful for his life, and refused to help Mab forever more, it would still have significantly weakened her enemy more than turned out to be the case. Anyway, regardless of Mab's motives for offering Vortigern that crystal, whether it was because of potential benefit to herself (and I DO believe there was some), or for the sake of keeping him alive, or maybe even a mixture of both, that's what I predict the outcome could have been. Maybe not victory- maybe Vortigern would have been defeated even if he had taken the crystal- but certainly more damaging to Uther's army.
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Accolon
Merlin's Apprentice
Posts: 259
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Post by Accolon on Oct 18, 2008 15:25:23 GMT
Well of course Vortigern would not be happy with the consequences of taking Mab's tear. Taking a fairy gift ALWAYS results in bad outcomes for the receiver. Hmm gives me an idea for make a wish thread.
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