Vortigern!

[Libitine]

So . . . what do you all think of him?

[Lane of Magic]

I like him... *stupid grin*

He was definitely a very intriguing character, and sure to leave an impression (whether positive one or not, that's beside the point...).

He surely had his qualities, not for nothing did he manage to get the crown and keep it for such a long time, especially in that time. And apart from being brave, shrewd, practical and generally smart, I found him funny too. Really, how could you not snigger, seeing his face when the tower was collapsing behind him and he knew it without looking?

His pride was indeed what condemned him in the end, but I have to admit that’s also part of his charm, so I don’t think I’d like him as much, were he any different. I admit it must be a love/hate thing – and before anyone asks, I meant it in the “You hate to love him” sense, not the other way around.

And also, I guess it was very much Rutger Hauer’s merit to have made the most of every line.

As far as the books go, I truly was annoyed with the writer for turning him into such a git at the beginning (I know it’s nothing personal, that it’s probably James Mallory’s theory that when there isn’t much background for a character, there’s always the posibility of vilifying him – it’s happened in Cornwall’s case too).

[himiko]

I think he's a bit of an arsehole, to be honest. An amusing enough one in the film, to be sure, but still a bit of a git.

I thought Rutger Hauer played him well, but I didn't find him particularly likeable (nor attractive, but that another thing altogether ). BUT, to be fair, the novelisation doesn't really help matters, so it's entirely possible that I'd like him more if I hadn't read them. I seem to recall that I did, actually, so blame James Mallory, LOL. But to be fair, I found that the whole betrayal thing did fit in with his character- he comes across as arrogant and paranoid in the film- I can see that such a man wouldn't really want to conquer a country only to willingly submit to, and serve another, so in that way, betraying Mab and taking the crown solely for himself fits in with his character.

I don't know, I think to give him credit, his character does work well in the film, and I think his paranoia and short temper can be quite entertaining, but there's something about him I'm not so keen on. Also, whilst I can appreciate that he must have had some level of common sense/ shrewdness/intelligence to keep the throne for 20 years (either that or because he just killed anyone who was a threat to him), but it seemed to go out of the window a little bit when Mab arrived- when she offers him an extremely suspicious deal about Nimue, it's "Hmmm.... OK!", then when she offers him something that might genuinely help him, or at least not do him any harm just to try out, it's "Nope! I won't!". Bit daft.

[Libitine]

i too, like Vortigern.
i think his pride is a mask though. (i'll explain).
you see, i don't think his is confident at all, i think he is just arrogant which is entirely different.
as far as the whole, 'making deals' thing goes, himiko, i think it was just good for the plot that Nimue say yes really fast and Voritgern say no. it's writing in my opinion not really character.

plus, as i have said, he got further with Mab than anyone else in the whole damn movie and sexual tension with the Queen of the Old Ways is always nice. ;D

[Lane of Magic]

Well, if I’m to be completely fair, he didn’t even trick her in the book – he let her fool herself and make what she wanted of his reply. After all, he only said he "can do that", kill Christians, that he’s "pretty good at it". And he did kill King Constant and lots of Christians. The fact that he killed Pagans alike doesn’t come in contradiction with what he promised her.

On the other hand, if this had been the case, I would have expected a little confrontation at one point in the book – I understand she would want to use him initially, but when she goes to his tent with no apparent objective reason, and neither of them brings up that initial talk they had, it’s a bit odd.


In the movie, his first impulse was to refuse. And Mab just pouted and turned to leave, making him call after her (I can definitely understand that…). I think he wanted to give it a shot, and not listen to his better judgement just that one time. And it didn’t turn out well. Remember that “So much for your magic. It doesn’t matter, I didn’t believe in it anyway”? – hm, he seemed to be making a great effort to sound indifferent, and it came across as vexed, crossed, disappointed. Of course he would not want to appear a fool a second time, hence the choice to throw away the tear.

In Mab’s case, I think it was the other way around. Initially, she wanted to trick him, her only purpose being to make Merlin use his powers. But once that happened, there was no reason to go warn Vortigern about anything (and even more so, if we take into account the episode at the beginning of the book). Still, she goes to him, and sincerely tries to help him – except that now, he’s already been “burned”, so obviously he would not accept any kind of help.

Talk about bad timing, huh?

[himiko]

I think to some extent there IS a reason for her to warn Vortigern- Uther is still a Christian after all, doubtless she'd rather see Vortigern on the throne than that- not to mention wanting to show her power to her son so he'll come back to her, or whatever. But yes, I think she did want to warn him, and I think she somewhat begrudgingly respected him on some level for exhibiting a similar pride and stubbornness to herself. Mind you, it doesn't seem to concern her for very long in the book.

Mab: Oh dear, Vortigern's dead... Ah, well, life goes on- look, Nimue's scarred, that could be useful!...

[Lane of Magic]

Actually, I found there was more in the books than in the movie (where the tent scene apparently said it all) in that respect – I hated the way the writer put it, that she “felt a curious pain in the place that had once been her heart”, but it was still stating rather a lot, together with the fact that she would miss him, despite all their bickering (even fighting, if you will).

And of course she could not just go around sniffling over him – she couldn’t afford to stop even for a minute, she didn’t have that luxury.

[himiko]

Hmm, fair enough. I can see where the MabV shippers are coming from, I even read the odd MabV fic, but it's just not one of my favourite pairings, so perhaps that's why my viewpoint tends to be more negative, LOL.

[Libitine]

hey, if it ain't your fav, don't worry.
MM isn't my favorite, but i deal with it.

i just loooove Vortigern.

[Lane of Magic]

libitine said:

i just loooove Vortigern.

Ditto!

But really, I think, in the end, he's that type of character that you either love or hate.

And speaking of MM, I swear I had never thought of it before joining the forum... But, as I said, I can find this idea enjoyable, depending on the circumstances.

[Libitine]

to be honest . . . i had mused about it, but never really invested to much time thinking about and/or plotting it out.

[himiko]

landofmagic said:

And speaking of MM, I swear I had never thought of it before joining the forum... But, as I said, I can find this idea enjoyable, depending on the circumstances.

LOL, we corrupted you!

[Libitine]

*sigh*
then i must be reeeallllyyy corrupted then.
oh well.
being corrupted is fun.

you get friends.

[Lane of Magic]

LOL – as I said, given the right circumstances… the very right circumstances… the ultimate right circumstances!
But yes, you have corrupted me… *shakes head*

On the other hand, I can honestly say I was very surprised also when I first saw that tent scene. I hadn’t seen that one coming, but I did like it, and I did have the feeling they cut to the battle scene too soon. And I’m not being highly subjective here, but it just felt unfinished, it gave the feeling there could have been more.

And again, how come almost every character discussion turns into a Mab/said character talk instead? Tis funny…

[Libitine]

why Lane?
well because we wish it was Mab/Us.
that's why.


um. LMAO. i will NEVER forget this.
i was in class, right, with, like, 22 other kids and when she sat on his lap, i said really loud, 'uh oh. here comes a rough love scene!'

my teacher was the one laughing the hardest.