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Post by Arwen17 on Aug 18, 2010 22:49:57 GMT
But why didn't he jump in my I cant stand Nimue boat he sucks. Had he just tried a liiil harder he may have enjoyed it You'd have a hard time convincing Merlin to do that. lol But I really can't imagine how much he hated her at that point to willingly let himself become Vortigern's prisoner. I wonder how long he could have played that out had he not been let out.Some of that was pure stubbornness, not just hatred. He was determined not the lose their little game. Was Mab's belief in Merlin totally false then? Was there absolutely no hope for him turning back to her?After hurting Nimue, yes, unless something amazing happened. Before Nimue, maaaybbeee. Something would have had to happen for him to think there was no one else fit to rule and he would have to take up the responsibility. But he was so hell-bent on not letting Mab win (aka get him on the throne) that it would have had to have been a really extraordinary situation to tempt him onto the throne. Maybe if Nimue encouraged him and told him there was no one else and the whole world would be destroyed if he didn't help. So basically Merlin was exactly like Mab but with the bravado that his vengance was helping. And when you think about it did he help? The country was in a case of damned if you pick one religion damned if you pick the other. It was more a case of pick a side and ride with it, it wouldn't make much difference to the outcome I don't think.Completely agree with all of that. Yeah smart ass you would get the whole thing lmaooh I opened the movie file on my computer. I didn't have that memorized. lol I don't even need to stick the DVD in, so it takes like 5 seconds. hmmm so if it had came down to a bigger evil than Mab and he had to choose that evil or her would he have still chose to let her die? (dont ask where I pulled that from cos I got no idea)If there was a greater evil and Mab was the only one who could stop it, yes I think he would side with her. (Hey we found a situation where Merlin would be cooperative!) I know and I feel it a hard question to answer because you have the proof to suggest he wouldn't love her but he never says he doesn't. Like Mab she says I love him but hate him to? Could that also speak for Merlin? Obviously I'd say she loved him much more than he did her if at all.It's hard because I can think of plenty of things that prove he hated her, but I cannot think of one thing that proved he had anything other than hatred for her. If it makes you feel better, the books have more promise than the movie, but still don't give you a clear example if he felt anything more than hatred for her.
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Post by Mabforever on Aug 19, 2010 22:30:04 GMT
You'd have a hard time convincing Merlin to do that. lol*clears throat* Time means nothing to me. ;D Oi Merlin sod off from Nimue and get waving your magick wand. ;D Some of that was pure stubbornness, not just hatred. He was determined not the lose their little game.Stubborn lol that was always on my nursery report card Meh battle of the wills, reminds me of another great fic After hurting Nimue, yes, unless something amazing happened. Before Nimue, maaaybbeee. Something would have had to happen for him to think there was no one else fit to rule and he would have to take up the responsibility. But he was so hell-bent on not letting Mab win (aka get him on the throne) that it would have had to have been a really extraordinary situation to tempt him onto the throne. Maybe if Nimue encouraged him and told him there was no one else and the whole world would be destroyed if he didn't help.
Meh and what chance do I have of convincing Nimue instead of Merlin ? Ok my nursery teachers were right, stubborness not an attractive quality - Merlin. So I wonder why Mab kept pushing him, wouldn't it have been easier to get Vortigern on side? Like if they had ended up together like in so many of the lovely fics. Cos with that book your reading, about the beautiful fae queen, and with Mab's actual looks she wouldn't be decieveing the law of free will. Completely agree with all of that.Ha! My first comment you agree with without any comments of your own oh I opened the movie file on my computer. I didn't have that memorized. loloh shurrup ;D I don't even need to stick the DVD in, so it takes like 5 secondsOh yeah that reminds me, I hate you for having the books and dvd If there was a greater evil and Mab was the only one who could stop it, yes I think he would side with her. (Hey we found a situation where Merlin would be cooperative!)
Woo hoo! I was actually thinking of illusion of magic when I came up with it lol. (jareth) It's hard because I can think of plenty of things that prove he hated her, but I cannot think of one thing that proved he had anything other than hatred for her. If it makes you feel better, the books have more promise than the movie, but still don't give you a clear example if he felt anything more than hatred for her.In one word they still blood. They still shared it, ie a connection. Plus she was his past, and creator and if those to don't cut it. She loved him. I can't believe Merlin felt nothing at 'I love you as a son.' If you say guilt, I will bite you it will hurt you will bleed muchly Well I suppose I'm gonna have to ask, what does it say in the book?
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Post by Arwen17 on Aug 20, 2010 0:12:57 GMT
Stubborn lol that was always on my nursery report card hehe, mine was always "she is very talkative" and they didn't mean that in a good way. funny, now I'm one of the quieter people.
So I wonder why Mab kept pushing him, wouldn't it have been easier to get Vortigern on side? Like if they had ended up together like in so many of the lovely fics. Cos with that book your reading, about the beautiful fae queen, and with Mab's actual looks she wouldn't be decieveing the law of free will. Yeah no kidding. But remember, Vortigern was very stubborn too. I think he would have possibly slept with her, but still would have refused to obey her out of stubbornness and pride. Plus, in Mab's mind, Merlin was worthy of the throne being her son. While Vortigern was this barbarian who had been slaughtering everyone.
Oh yeah that reminds me, I hate you for having the books and dvd Can you download torrents? That's one way to get a hold of the movie. I can give you some links and instructions in PM if you want.
Well I suppose I'm gonna have to ask, what does it say in the book? You will probably both hate and love this.
"Don't forget me, Merlin! I...love you," Mab croaked at last "As a son!" The fair folk could not lie. Perhaps what she said was true, or at least a truth. It did not matter. Mab had destroyed Merlin's ability to love her long ago. It was the greatest of the many injuries she had done him. He began to walk away.
So I think it confirms Mab did indeed love him, but as for Merlin loving Mab? I liked what you said before about them having a blood connection whether he likes it or not. That a little part of him couldn't help but at least feel drawn to her.
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Post by himiko on Aug 20, 2010 0:53:43 GMT
Have been reading through this discussion with great interest! Don't have the time to answer all the points now, but a few:
Book Quotes There's also a scene in the book where Merlin attempts to talk Mab into stopping their fight and letting events take their natural course. She refuses, and leaves, and whilst I don't have the book to hand to make a precise reference, it does say something like "No, Merlin no longer hated Queen Mab. But he pitied her. And he feared for Britain".
Mab-Merlin alliance I can see an alliance between Mab and Merlin happening, but it would certainly depend on the timing/reasons. Up until he's captured by Vortigern, Merlin has no interest in the running of the country, he's living out in the woods, keeping to himself and away from Mab. After Nimue is scarred, Merlin goes straight to Uther, partly because he thinks it is fated, and partly because he says he believes Uther could be a decent king (though he might just be saying that to please Uther, since he's had no chance to make any such judgements at that point), but mostly because he is the enemy of Vortigern and Mab- the people that scarred Nimue. By the second part of the film, I think Merlin's anger has cooled, and that the reigns of Vortigern and, particularly, Uther have made him appreciate the neccessity of having a good king on the throne, and that his concern is mostly to see Arthur succeed in uniting Britain and keeping it peaceful.
In the second part of the film, I can see several reasons that could lead to an alliance coming about- if an enemy was to appear that proved bad for both (e.g. an invasion of Christian forces from another country- more Christians are bad for Mab, an invading force is bad for the country, and Merlin doesn't seem to care overmuch about religion, except insomuch as his anger towards Mab)- whether human or supernatural. I suspect it would be an extremely begrudging alliance, however- they have been long time enemies. It's also possible that, had Arthur died for reasons not relating to Mab, leaving the throne vacant, if there had been a pagan candidate who Merlin saw as being "fit for the job", he may well have put his dislike of Mab aside at this stage for the sake of peace within the country.
In the first part, however, I honestly think, especially once Nimue is scarred, he would be somewhat blinded by anger, and so would side with pretty much anyone against Mab, at least in the short term, even if it wasn't the "wise" or "moral" thing to do. Perhaps if Mab had healed Nimue, or made some kind of amends for her actions, but this is highly unlikely. Another book passage! I seem to recall that in Book 2, Merlin is attempting to heal Nimue's scars, and in his frustration, thinks for a moment that he would return to the Queen of the Old Ways herself if it healed Nimue. Will try to look that one up when I next have the chance.
It's possible in the second part of the film, IMO, that they could have reached some kind of agreement, at least from Merlin's perspective. Arthur doesn't strike me as being the kind of Christian who's going to go out and burn down pagan shrines, if Merlin could have wrangled some agreement out of Arthur to allow pagans to openly practise their religion, without fear of legal recrimination, and been able to come to Mab in the scene I mentioned above with an offer (i.e. "Stop this war, let Mordred come to Arthur in peace, and your religion will remain, your followers won't be persecuted and your existence won't be in danger. Then there'll be a pagan heir to the throne and you'll grow stronger again.") rather than just "Please stop now?" do you think Mab would have agreed? Or do you think by this point she just wanted to win, and wouldn't settle for anything less than wiping out Arthur and Camelot? Do you think Merlin would have risked Mab's continued existence and potential regaining of power if it meant peace for Britain?
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Post by Arwen17 on Aug 20, 2010 16:10:25 GMT
"No, Merlin no longer hated Queen Mab. But he pitied her. And he feared for Britain".Pity still isn't love, but its better than hatred. This is the scene where Merlin asks Mab to stop and allow things to change. Basically he's telling her to give up and surrender. This is Merlin's totally unbrilliant idea of how to make peace with Mab. Then he says she can't rule people through fear, they need to love her or they will leave her. Mab stops and tries to understand this, but comes to the conclusion of Bhwaahaa! They should fear me! I agree with most of it, but several things about the last part. I agree Arthur's not the type to go around burning down Pagan shrines, but at the same time its hard to say if he would actually support the old ways. He is still Christian. So he might allow Mordred to come in peace, but I can't see him allowing a Pagan to succeed him to the throne. Also, Mordred is born out-of-wedlock to some who is his sister and not his wife which makes him an "illegitimate" heir. He would only have a slim chance to lay claim to the throne if Guinevere failed to produce children. And then even if Arthur did accept him, you still have the other Christian lords to deal with who are not as tolerable as Arthur. They would see it as a huge sin that Arthur slept with his own sister and refuse to have anything to do with Mordred and likely never fully forgive Arthur either. Now as for Mab accepting a deal with Arthur to let Mordred come to Camelot peacefully. Maybe Mab would settle for that. If she didn't think she could crush the Christians right away and that was the only choice. She has a lot of grief against them and I could see it being very difficult to accept them the same as the Christians would have a really hard time accepting Mordred. And she's also very suspicious. How does she know Arthur will keep his end of the deal? Vortigern lied to her and betrayed her all the time. Merlin's very iffy too. Maybe. I think he's much like Mab. If there was no other good solution, then he would accept a Pagan King. If there was no other solution, then Mab would tolerate Arthur until Mordred succeeded him. ---- I'm going to be in the UK in a week and I'll be there for 3 and 1/2 months. ;D Anything in particular I should do or see other than the usual tourism stuff? I'll be sure to keep an eye out for Mab too.
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Post by Mabforever on Aug 20, 2010 19:10:33 GMT
Bloody hell you leave for a couple of hours and people appear from nowhere lol replying in order. hehe, mine was always "she is very talkative" and they didn't mean that in a good way. funny, now I'm one of the quieter people.lol you little "chatter box" as they would say at my primary lol Nah I always got shy and stubborn, same now but it's shy stubborn and drunk. Yeah no kidding. But remember, Vortigern was very stubborn too. I think he would have possibly slept with her, but still would have refused to obey her out of stubbornness and pride. Plus, in Mab's mind, Merlin was worthy of the throne being her son. While Vortigern was this barbarian who had been slaughtering everyone.Yeah and that's gonna be a good scene in the new Merlin sequeal which your personally gonna make for me isn't it, *nods head and flares eyes like maniac* muhahahhaha. Awwwww your ruining stubborness for me I was a happy stubborn child now it doesn't seem such an attractive quality. But yeah he probably would have but I was thinking more of her saying sweet whispers than orders. ;D Oh yeah I doubt Mab would have wanted him now you say that. lol Can you download torrents? That's one way to get a hold of the movie. I can give you some links and instructions in PM if you want.I vaguely remember that word from before then I went to a web site with a blue frog, then I got reeeeally confused. I'm like a granny I'm thick as fuck when it comes to technology :L. You will probably both hate and love this.Oooooooooooh. "Don't forget me, Merlin! I...love you," Mab croaked at last "As a son!" The fair folk could not lie. Perhaps what she said was true, or at least a truth. It did not matter. Mab had destroyed Merlin's ability to love her long ago. It was the greatest of the many injuries she had done him. He began to walk away.Pffft "both love and hate" 20 points for guessing correctly. So I think it confirms Mab did indeed love him, but as for Merlin loving Mab? I liked what you said before about them having a blood connection whether he likes it or not. That a little part of him couldn't help but at least feel drawn to her.Yup, but on the other hand he could have love her given a time machine, Merlin supporting her, and Mab taking anger management classes. Soooo not completely a lost cos lmao. Well with nothing else to fall on I'm down to blood. __________________________________________________ Have been reading through this discussion with great interest! I thought you would be as I often see your online Book Quotes There's also a scene in the book where Merlin attempts to talk Mab into stopping their fight and letting events take their natural course. She refuses, and leaves, and whilst I don't have the book to hand to make a precise reference, it does say something like "No, Merlin no longer hated Queen Mab. But he pitied her. And he feared for Britain".
Awwww, , but I forbid Merlin to pity her lol. What sane person is gonna back down when it's life or death? Seriously. Mab-Merlin alliance I can see an alliance between Mab and Merlin happening, but it would certainly depend on the timing/reasons. Up until he's captured by Vortigern, Merlin has no interest in the running of the country, he's living out in the woods, keeping to himself and away from Mab. Oooooooooooooh, I know ! Um Uther could kill Nimue then Merlin could kill Uther and do as Mab says ;D After Nimue is scarred, Merlin goes straight to Uther, partly because he thinks it is fated, and partly because he says he believes Uther could be a decent king (though he might just be saying that to please Uther, since he's had no chance to make any such judgements at that point), but mostly because he is the enemy of Vortigern and Mab- the people that scarred Nimue.I vote he's just saying cos Uther goes loopy and Arthur's conception is hardly the work of a good King. And other than that it's a case of, my enemy's, enemy. In the second part of the film, I can see several reasons that could lead to an alliance coming about- if an enemy was to appear that proved bad for both (e.g. an invasion of Christian forces from another country- more Christians are bad for Mab, an invading force is bad for the country, and Merlin doesn't seem to care overmuch about religion, except insomuch as his anger towards Mab)- whether human or supernatural.Alliance, good, screw a sequeal let's re-take Merlin ;D So even with pagan blood and favoring a christian king is Merlin actually an athiest lol. I suspect it would be an extremely begrudging alliance, however- they have been long time enemies. It's also possible that, had Arthur died for reasons not relating to Mab, leaving the throne vacant, if there had been a pagan candidate who Merlin saw as being "fit for the job", he may well have put his dislike of Mab aside at this stage for the sake of peace within the country.
To which it would be marvelous to see Mab do her happy dance , I dunno if he would though. I see him more to go through every christian in the country to find a good man with noble blood before helping Mab. (and to think I was on the other side of this argument a mere post ago lol the things you do to keep a convo going) In the first part, however, I honestly think, especially once Nimue is scarred, he would be somewhat blinded by anger, and so would side with pretty much anyone against Mab, at least in the short term, even if it wasn't the "wise" or "moral" thing to do. LoL as said above haha. Perhaps if Mab had healed Nimue, or made some kind of amends for her actions, but this is highly unlikely. Another book passage! I seem to recall that in Book 2, Merlin is attempting to heal Nimue's scars, and in his frustration, thinks for a moment that he would return to the Queen of the Old Ways herself if it healed Nimue. Will try to look that one up when I next have the chance.Then why in the name of hell didn't Mab do that It's possible in the second part of the film, IMO, that they could have reached some kind of agreement, at least from Merlin's perspective. Arthur doesn't strike me as being the kind of Christian who's going to go out and burn down pagan shrines, ditto. if Merlin could have wrangled some agreement out of Arthur to allow pagans to openly practise their religion, without fear of legal recrimination, and been able to come to Mab in the scene I mentioned above with an offer (i.e. "Stop this war, let Mordred come to Arthur in peace, and your religion will remain, your followers won't be persecuted and your existence won't be in danger. Then there'll be a pagan heir to the throne and you'll grow stronger again.") rather than just "Please stop now?" do you think Mab would have agreed? Or do you think by this point she just wanted to win, and wouldn't settle for anything less than wiping out Arthur and Camelot? *sigh* Mab being Mab Im almost positive she'd opt for option 2 but in the very end where she is deterioating probs change to option one. Which imo would have worked out fine for all parties concerned. Do you think Merlin would have risked Mab's continued existence and potential regaining of power if it meant peace for BritainMmm well after several lines similar to I hope you die and disappear I'm not sure. It depends if he is out for his self or the country at the time. ________________________________________ "No, Merlin no longer hated Queen Mab. But he pitied her. And he feared for Britain". Pity still isn't love, but its better than hatred.*huffs* S'pose so. This is the scene where Merlin asks Mab to stop and allow things to change. Basically he's telling her to give up and surrender. This is Merlin's totally unbrilliant idea of how to make peace with Mab. Yeah Merlin ace, I mean we can all totally see Mab going for that one. Then he says she can't rule people through fear, they need to love her or they will leave her. Mab stops and tries to understand this, but comes to the conclusion of Bhwaahaa! They should fear me!
Such a shame, but at the same time. Two faced much? I believe the whole reason she is dying is not only cos of Christians but cos it's like illegal to be Pagan. ie they are also invoking fear. And according to Ambrosia she did feel love. Once. ________________________________________________ I agree with most of it, but several things about the last part. I agree Arthur's not the type to go around burning down Pagan shrines, but at the same time its hard to say if he would actually support the old ways. He is still Christian. So he might allow Mordred to come in peace, but I can't see him allowing a Pagan to succeed him to the throne.New thought ! Would Arthur actually get a choice? If you think about Guinevere and it's not like he hated her... Also, Mordred is born out-of-wedlock to some who is his sister and not his wife which makes him an "illegitimate" heir. He would only have a slim chance to lay claim to the throne if Guinevere failed to produce children. And then even if Arthur did accept him, you still have the other Christian lords to deal with who are not as tolerable as Arthur. They would see it as a huge sin that Arthur slept with his own sister and refuse to have anything to do with Mordred and likely never fully forgive Arthur either.Yeah that were the lot that nearly had Guiny burned ;D I never thought of Mordred much in the last couple of posts tbh. More Mab/Merlin and surprisingly enough Arthur lol Now as for Mab accepting a deal with Arthur to let Mordred come to Camelot peacefully. Maybe Mab would settle for that. If she didn't think she could crush the Christians right away and that was the only choice. She has a lot of grief against them and I could see it being very difficult to accept them the same as the Christians would have a really hard time accepting Mordred.
Kinda like my above post, if a sort truce was agreed I really don't see them wining and dining any time soon... *day dreams* yah, lets skip it. And she's also very suspicious. How does she know Arthur will keep his end of the deal? Vortigern lied to her and betrayed her all the time.She doesn't she gambles, and Mab can't get away with JUST being the victim as far as Vortigern is concerned ;D Merlin's very iffy too. Maybe. I think he's much like Mab. If there was no other good solution, then he would accept a Pagan King. If there was no other solution, then Mab would tolerate Arthur until Mordred succeeded him.Mmmmmmmm interesting. I automatically figure she'd trust Merlin more than Arthur, due to them being more "close" though it's not the word. Then again she may see Arthur as the gullible weaker link.
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Post by himiko on Aug 20, 2010 23:58:22 GMT
Whereabouts in the UK are you going, Arwen17? Or are you just generally travelling around the country? You should go to Tintagel Castle and take lots of pictures, because I, to my shame, have never been *shameface* Alliance/DealsHmmm, I see what people mean about Arthur. Any plan to try and make peace with the Old Ways either has to involve the Old Ways pretty much just giving up and letting go, which is pretty much what Mab refused to do in the first place, or putting the Old Ways in a position where they can exist and, to a certain extent, flourish. Of course, the problem with that, as you say, which I hadn't really thought about, is that Arthur does have several "hard line" Christians in his inner circle- it's mentioned several times in the last book that the knights aren't always content having Merlin around, and he's one of Arthur's oldest allies and has never actually wronged them. Arthur would lose a lot of support if he attempted to give ground to the Old Ways, and Mab, and then there's either going to be civil war, and pagans will be persecuted anyway, or simply his lords won't uphold his wishes after his death. I suspect, even had Mordred come to Camelot in peace, and not told Arthur about Guinevere and Lancelot, it would have come out in the end- it's pretty much the worst kept secret at that court, let's be honest. One of the knights would have mentioned it to Arthur, and then the same path might well have followed- at the very least, I suspect their marriage might not have been happy. Whether any legitimate heirs would have been born to Arthur, who knows? The other problem with having an agreement where Mordred succeeds Arthur, giving Mab what she wants in the long term, and Arthur time to bring peace and stability to the country in the meantime- great as it sounds on paper- is that, other than the potential unrest amongst the nobility, general lack of trust between parties concerned, etc. is that Mordred, whilst I like the character very much, is not cut out to be a strong peacetime king. In a way, Mab's demonstrating a lot of shortsightedness in the way she raises him, or perhaps it's a demonstration of how bringing down Arthur and co is now more important than raising the Old Ways? Let's be honest, Mordred is spoilt, and likes killing. He promises in the book to lay waste to the country (and kill Merlin, he likes that idea a lot)- if he was a well balanced, rational kind of person, then yes, it might work, but Mordred is heading for being Vortigern Part II: Even More Killing. At the stage that Merlin tries to "make peace" with Mab, there's no way that Mordred could be a viable candidate to simply take over from Arthur. Merlin's not that stupid. And they don't really have another viable candidate, at least not one that's shown in the film or books, unfortunately NimueI checked the passage in the book, in fact it then goes on to say that Merlin thinks about it for a minute, after his initial thought, and decides that no, he couldn't do it, even for Nimue. Of course, the offer wasn't placed there. I think it's a matter of Mab not understanding humans. Had she come to Nimue while the pain and humiliation of her scars were still fresh, had she come to Merlin before he invested his hopes in Arthur, and offered to heal Nimue's scars and leave them in peace, in return for perhaps helping her get rid of Uther, it would have been interesting to see if either Merlin or Nimue would have been tempted enough to agree. By the time she started using "bribes" to get her way from Merlin, Nimue had grown more used to her scars, and Merlin was very much in his "I must do what is right for the country!" mode. It took time for Nimue to agree to her proposal, and even then she only agreed, and Merlin only went to her, when he was no longer "needed" at Camelot. Bless Mab, she picks her moments!
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Post by Arwen17 on Aug 21, 2010 4:16:15 GMT
omg, I just noticed the last post was Himiko's and not mabforever. I got so used to her responding that I completely forgot anyone else might possibly exist. Hello Himiko! Nice to see you!
Oooooooooooooh, I know ! Um Uther could kill Nimue then Merlin could kill Uther and do as Mab says That happens somewhere in the "mab fic we all add to" on MRAP board! Have you read it? god, you should, its so good.
is Merlin actually an athiest lol. well Ambrosia kinda was.
Whereabouts in the UK are you going, Arwen17? I'm going to be living in Lincolnshire area and pretty close to Nottingham. I thought about Tintagel, but I hear its really hard to reach without a car? Whatever I do its going to have to be close enough to public transportation.
Mordred Yes to all of that. But I think she had to make him violent because his reign was guaranteed to be a long, bloody uphill battle to uproot Christianity. He would be Vortigern II, but maybe with Mab in control, he would avoid slaughting the Pagans and just slaughter everyone else. It depends if he would still listen to her after he had the throne.
Bless Mab, she picks her moments! hehehe
gah three-way conversations!
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It's curious that Mab is never referred to as a "goddess" in the film. She's called madam, queen, lady, sorceress I think, but never anything with divinity.
In the book it talks about about the triple goddess, but never directly speaks about her with the capital G "Goddess" if you know what I mean. Like they make references 'n stuff, but once again no characters every refer to her as such. It's always queen, lady, witch again.
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Post by Mabforever on Aug 21, 2010 23:59:24 GMT
You should go to Tintagel Castle and take lots of pictures, because I, to my shame, have never been *shameface* Ditto. Alliance/Deals Hmmm, I see what people mean about Arthur. Any plan to try and make peace with the Old Ways either has to involve the Old Ways pretty much just giving up and letting go, which is pretty much what Mab refused to do in the first place, or putting the Old Ways in a position where they can exist and, to a certain extent, flourish.LOL ok so we have to give the film that one as there was no other way Haha, guess that was the way with most interesting story to it. Of course, the problem with that, as you say, which I hadn't really thought about, is that Arthur does have several "hard line" Christians in his inner circle- it's mentioned several times in the last book that the knights aren't always content having Merlin around, and he's one of Arthur's oldest allies and has never actually wronged them. Arthur would lose a lot of support if he attempted to give ground to the Old Ways, and Mab, and then there's either going to be civil war, and pagans will be persecuted anyway, or simply his lords won't uphold his wishes after his death.Yeah I've actually noticed this in alot of the legends, Arthur is most usually the good guy, surrounded by bad guys yet he's supposed to be King but in all can't do anything without the support of the Christian Lords. It makes him being King a lil pointless imo. I suspect, even had Mordred come to Camelot in peace, and not told Arthur about Guinevere and Lancelot, it would have come out in the end- it's pretty much the worst kept secret at that court, let's be honest. One of the knights would have mentioned it to Arthur, and then the same path might well have followed- at the very least, I suspect their marriage might not have been happy. Whether any legitimate heirs would have been born to Arthur, who knows?Which makes me think, isn't Guinevere/Arthur the most stupid romantic relationship ever? She screws Lancelot, he screws his own sister. Were they ever actually meant to be in love or were they put together for other benefits? The other problem with having an agreement where Mordred succeeds Arthur, giving Mab what she wants in the long term, and Arthur time to bring peace and stability to the country in the meantime- great as it sounds on paper- is that, other than the potential unrest amongst the nobility, general lack of trust between parties concerned, etc. is that Mordred, whilst I like the character very much, is not cut out to be a strong peacetime king. In a way, Mab's demonstrating a lot of shortsightedness in the way she raises him, or perhaps it's a demonstration of how bringing down Arthur and co is now more important than raising the Old Ways? Let's be honest, Mordred is spoilt, and likes killing. He promises in the book to lay waste to the country (and kill Merlin, he likes that idea a lot)- if he was a well balanced, rational kind of person, then yes, it might work, but Mordred is heading for being Vortigern Part II: Even More Killing. At the stage that Merlin tries to "make peace" with Mab, there's no way that Mordred could be a viable candidate to simply take over from Arthur. Merlin's not that stupid. And they don't really have another viable candidate, at least not one that's shown in the film or books, unfortunately
Ok well I said earlier about Vortigern/Mab pairing up and her sort of controlling him, but wasn't that her actual plan with Mordred. Everyone kept saying Vortigern was stupid, but as much as I love him let's face it he had nothing on Mordred. Mordred had the obsession of power and Mab but he did not have as much brains mainly due to the fact he grew up so very quickly. Nimue
I checked the passage in the book, in fact it then goes on to say that Merlin thinks about it for a minute, after his initial thought, and decides that no, he couldn't do it, even for Nimue. Of course, the offer wasn't placed there.*pop* another bubble just burst pfffffffffft what would it have bloody taken to get him to side with her, jeese. I think it's a matter of Mab not understanding humans. Had she come to Nimue while the pain and humiliation of her scars were still fresh, had she come to Merlin before he invested his hopes in Arthur, and offered to heal Nimue's scars and leave them in peace, in return for perhaps helping her get rid of Uther, it would have been interesting to see if either Merlin or Nimue would have been tempted enough to agree. By the time she started using "bribes" to get her way from Merlin, Nimue had grown more used to her scars, and Merlin was very much in his "I must do what is right for the country!" mode. It took time for Nimue to agree to her proposal, and even then she only agreed, and Merlin only went to her, when he was no longer "needed" at Camelot. Bless Mab, she picks her moments!Ahhhhhhhhhhh, mistress of magick maybe but humanity is a different story, and probably a much harder concept to understand. Even frik's closest to it was through Morgan. Tbh I don't think anyone truly understands humanity as we are all so different. The main things she needed to understand were love and compassion, not very useful while in awar. ________________ Omg, I just noticed the last post was Himiko's and not mabforever. I got so used to her responding that I completely forgot anyone else might possibly exist. Hello Himiko! Nice to see you!Ha! I'm special, everyone thinks everybody is me na na nana na. *is hit by rock someone throws* Hey! :L Oooooooooooooh, I know ! Um Uther could kill Nimue then Merlin could kill Uther and do as Mab says That happens somewhere in the "mab fic we all add to" on MRAP board! Have you read it? god, you should, its so good.
Mmmm, I'm not sure, I am reading the one which is being currently written with Mab/Idath and she's bringing Merlin up. well Ambrosia kinda was.
Yeah but originally pagan where as Merlin's like I don't give a fuck I just want blondey on the thrown ;D I'm going to be living in Lincolnshire area and pretty close to Nottingham. I thought about Tintagel, but I hear its really hard to reach without a car? Whatever I do its going to have to be close enough to public transportation. No idea, but guessing that's england your going to? Mordred Yes to all of that. But I think she had to make him violent because his reign was guaranteed to be a long, bloody uphill battle to uproot Christianity. He would be Vortigern II, but maybe with Mab in control, he would avoid slaughting the Pagans and just slaughter everyone else. It depends if he would still listen to her after he had the throne.
Yeah I think he would and very sure he would have listened to her, cos he may think Mab could use her powers on her as she did Frik, but barr that he did care about Mab he like so many thought she was uber awesome. He died for her. Even though Morgan showered him with love, Mab gave toys making her the constant good guy so I don't think there'd even be an argument. gah three-way conversations!LOL, we have four on the forum talking now. I wonder what ever happened to fishinthesea though ---------- It's curious that Mab is never referred to as a "goddess" in the film. She's called madam, queen, lady, sorceress I think, but never anything with divinity.Mmm, well who would call her that? Goddes is abit over the top for the likes of Frik. And she was hardly ever in anyone elses good books to demand that type of respect. In the book it talks about about the triple goddess, but never directly speaks about her with the capital G "Goddess" if you know what I mean. Like they make references 'n stuff, but once again no characters every refer to her as such. It's always queen, lady, witch again.Maybe that was everyones reason, Goddess was too over the top but then again I would have thought the sooth sayer would have called her Goddess.
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Post by Arwen17 on Aug 22, 2010 1:42:50 GMT
Mmmm, I'm not sure, I am reading the one which is being currently written with Mab/Idath and she's bringing Merlin up. Don't just read it, add to it. Earlybird and I have been the only ones to post so far.
And the other one is really long, but its great. I think it took me a long long time to get through it, but I did and its like the ultimate awesome mab fanfic. The only other one that I like as much as it is the labyrinth jareth one. Just take your time and work through it, you can always bookmark your place.
No idea, but guessing that's england your going to? yes, where do you live? I thought you were in the UK somewhere or at least the way you word things makes it seem so. Example: you used "fullstop" earlier and that's British English. I don't think anyone in the States uses it, they would say "period". 'course there's plenty of other places in the world that use UK english so it doesn't prove anything.
Maybe that was everyones reason, Goddess was too over the top but then again I would have thought the sooth sayer would have called her Goddess. In Christianity, you do use "Lord" a lot, but you still use "God" too. And even though Jesus is considered "King" its not something that's actually used to talk about him. You get "messiah" and "savior" for that one.
I'm just surprised "goddess" was never used once by anyone. "I am Mab Queen of the Old Ways." Never "Mab, the goddess of the Old Ways" or "the goddess of the Pagans is on the rampage again" It's always "queen".
She comes across more like royalty and sorcerous instead of divine. Does that make sense?
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Post by Mabforever on Aug 22, 2010 10:41:22 GMT
Don't just read it, add to it.Barr the fact I cant even update my phone fics just now I can not write Idath. I blank at him. And the other one is really long, but its great. I think it took me a long long time to get through it, but I did and its like the ultimate awesome mab fanfic. The only other one that I like as much as it is the labyrinth jareth one. Just take your time and work through it, you can always bookmark your place.Not sure if I read it, what's the name of it again. I adore An Illusion of Magic. yes, where do you live? I thought you were in the UK somewhere or at least the way you word things makes it seem so. Example: you used "fullstop" earlier and that's British English. I don't think anyone in the States uses it, they would say "period". 'course there's plenty of other places in the world that use UK english so it doesn't prove anything.Oi! "The way I word things," like I'm sorta chav or something lol jusssst kiddin. Well I'll give you a hint, A stie in ah place where wee aw talk like this n they say dars pure mad wee haggis runnin aboot. N ma maw says ah talk awfy broad. translation - I stay in a place where we all talk like this and they say theres insane haggis running around. And my mum says I talk very broad. lol I'm in Scotland. ;D I'm just surprised "goddess" was never used once by anyone. "I am Mab Queen of the Old Ways." Never "Mab, the goddess of the Old Ways" or "the goddess of the Pagans is on the rampage again" It's always "queen".Her ending and the people praying to her is the only sign I get she a Goddess at all. She comes across more like royalty and sorcerous instead of divine. Does that make sense?Yes it does I know what you mean (though I can consider her to be simply divine as she is Mab and is played my Miranda Richardson) But yes I do know what you mean.
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Post by Arwen17 on Aug 23, 2010 1:29:02 GMT
Oi! "The way I word things," like I'm sorta chav or something lol jusssst kiddin. Well I'll give you a hint, A stie in ah place where wee aw talk like this n they say dars pure mad wee haggis runnin aboot. N ma maw says ah talk awfy broad. translation - I stay in a place where we all talk like this and they say theres insane haggis running around. And my mum says I talk very broad. lol I'm in Scotland.You word things like a UK person instead of US person. Nothing wrong, just different. Only slightly noticeable in writing, very noticeable when speaking. I actually understood that stuff you said there, but I bet if it was said to me aloud, I would look like "Wha...t?" I was surprised you weren't familiar with UK geography -Lincolnshire, but I guess that's like expecting an American to know where every place in the US is. It's just that the UK is so "small", no offence, that it feels like you could memorize where everything is located compared to the US. here it is: Mab story we all add to
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Post by Mabforever on Aug 23, 2010 18:24:56 GMT
You word things like a UK person instead of US person. Nothing wrong, just different. Only slightly noticeable in writing, very noticeable when speaking. Haha, best of it is I tend to Americanise my wording alot when Im speaking lol.
I actually understood that stuff you said there, but I bet if it was said to me aloud, I would look like "Wha...t?"
Lmao probably, my gran and that sometimes have problems understanding me. I'm one of the worst when I'm talking I have a strutherhill accent and only very small portion talk like me but I do love our scottish words haha.
I was surprised you weren't familiar with UK geography -Lincolnshire, but I guess that's like expecting an American to know where every place in the US is. It's just that the UK is so "small", no offence, that it feels like you could memorize where everything is located compared to the US. Pfffffffffffft lol let me tell you another fun mabforever fact. My and two of my friends jumped on a train to Glasgow and ended up nearly in Belfast :L :L
here it is: Mab story we all add to
OMFG that's HUUUUGE!
Gah! forum dying again, people vanishing, posts getting...smaller *dies*
Uuuuuum, lets see lets see a Mab question?.....................
Do you think Mab would have done her own make up? (and by that I mean Mab not Miranda :L)
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Post by Arwen17 on Aug 23, 2010 23:20:51 GMT
My and two of my friends jumped on a train to Glasgow and ended up nearly in Belfast is there a train that goes across the water? Is Belfast even safe? All I hear about are crazy Irish terrorists. Do you think Mab would have done her own make up?tentative yes. What is human royalty like? Do their servants do everything? Or are there some things the person herself is allowed to do? I think, in some movies I've watched, the servants help get them in their corset and dress and do their hair, but the lady herself sits at her vanity table and does her own makeup and jewelry with the servant standing by to help with anything. Gah! forum dying again, people vanishing, posts getting...smaller *dies*I knoe OMFG that's HUUUUGE!see it is excellent because the writers were enjoying it so much they didn't stop for a long time. most group-stories cough and die pretty quickly, but not this one Idea:We could talk about other books/movies and then compare it to Mab for a new angle and new stuff to talk about if we get really desperate. Questions:The dragon, what happened to it? Did it die of starvation from being all tied up? Why didn't Mab release it? Could she have used it for something in the future or wouldn't she care if a magical creature died?? Why is Uther represented by a Red Dragon on his flag? Dragons are symbols for the devil in Christian belief. Why does a Christian use a dragon on his flag? In an attempt to explore symbolism and history: The Red Dragon on the Welsh FlagThe Red dragon of the Britons(Celts) and the White Dragon of the Anglo-SaxonsWhite Dragon Flag of England ooo I like this whole site. Read the "Myth and Legend" one too. Merlin is starting to sound like a romanticism tale of how the Welsh or the Celts kicked the Anglo-Saxons out of Britain. Or at least they wish that's what happened. Those dragons look like their hugging, not fighting. Bad artist. Merlin, Vortigern mythDragon color symbolism -fun site Have you ever read Eragon?
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Post by Mabforever on Aug 24, 2010 20:52:23 GMT
is there a train that goes across the water? Is Belfast even safe? All I hear about are crazy Irish terrorists.There maybe lol, but when I say nearly I don't mean that far. You can go via ferry though. Ak it's most likely to be fine, Larkhall where I live, very high on the same sort of things Belfast is and a lot of the Belfast ones come over here. When my mum was in the orange lodge she went over. Things have calmed down quite abit. tentative yes. What is human royalty like? Do their servants do everything? Or are there some things the person herself is allowed to do?Yeah I know haha, it's odd though. I'm not sure if it's cos she's Queen Mab or if it's cos she's Mab but I can't see her sitting doing her make up at the same time I don't see Frik doing it for her lol. I think, in some movies I've watched, the servants help get them in their corset and dress and do their hair, but the lady herself sits at her vanity table and does her own makeup and jewelry with the servant standing by to help with anything.Ok then lol do you think she did her own corset/hair then? :L I'm not sure on the corset yet for some reason I see lots of like small faeries the really lil ones, coming in to do her hair. I have a feeling I'm thinking of a film. I knoe *guy jumping off a cliff* AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! *dies* see it is excellent because the writers were enjoying it so much they didn't stop for a long time. most group-stories cough and die pretty quickly, but not this oneI read it nightly . Gutted about Vortigern I did love the one we were writing on here unfortunately it died. Idea: We could talk about other books/movies and then compare it to Mab for a new angle and new stuff to talk about if we get really desperate.OK sure why not though I don't think we watch the alota the same stuff lol Again my main one would be Harry Potter lol, I sorta consider Voldemort as the selfish version of Mab but I'm sure I've said this part before all the same just a lil starter Questions: The dragon, what happened to it?I always wondered that lol, it may still be there Did it die of starvation from being all tied up?Well if it did tough cos it should have bloody ate Nimue Why didn't Mab release it? Could she have used it for something in the future or wouldn't she care if a magical creature died??Mmmm,good question, why didn't she let him go immediately so he could chase after Nimue and Merlin? Or let it go as you said it was a magickal creature to be free. If we are to assume Mab did not free it and left it to rott whil considering it was a "magickal" creature it would rather defeat her cause would it not? Why is Uther represented by a Red Dragon on his flag? Dragons are symbols for the devil in Christian belief. Why does a Christian use a dragon on his flag?Why does Uther have to exist at all? *looks around at blank faces* LOL maybe cos it's like ferocious? In an attempt to explore symbolism and history: The Red Dragon on the Welsh Flag The Red dragon of the Britons(Celts) and the White Dragon of the Anglo-Saxons White Dragon Flag of England ooo I like this whole site. Read the "Myth and Legend" one too.Pffffffffft whats wrong with the simple answer it's scary lookin ? ;D Merlin is starting to sound like a romanticism tale of how the Welsh or the Celts kicked the Anglo-Saxons out of Britain. Or at least they wish that's what happened.You know when they say the rest is history? That applies to any topics involving war...period *being american* The dragons are cute ickle dragons lol. Um Eragon,.........Eragon. No I haven't read it but have a strong feeling I have seen a film my that name My own random questions, nothing to do with this: How the hell is an egg not meat if an egg is a chicken and chicken is meat? It makes no sense Why does the sun tan us if the moon does not make us whiter ? Purplez Why's Mab purple? Like why is everything around her purple I mean, haha. She does look stunning and has gave me a love for the colour but why not red or green or somethin ? ;D
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