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Post by himiko on May 21, 2007 13:38:43 GMT
I'm with you on that one, Tosca- Mab cannot save Mordred from death, and I find it hard to believe that she could have saved either Ambrosia or Elissa, but she's too proud to admit that there's magic beyond her power, particularly admitting that to a mortal, or non-mortal in Merlin's case.
I think you may be right, Joel, about Merlin only being able to defeat Mab after he'd learned to ignore his anger- there's one scene in the books, towards the end, where he says that he no longer hated Mab, but pitied her, and feared for Britain.
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Post by tosca on May 21, 2007 14:29:23 GMT
Is that the scene where he tries to make friends with her? If it is, it also mentions in that scene that he tries to explain how people must be ruled through love, not fear, and that Mab tries to understand him, but fails. She ends up saying something like, 'Bwahaha, they have every right to fear me!' This misunderstanding thing does seem to be at the root of all problems.
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Post by himiko on May 21, 2007 16:31:47 GMT
Yes, that is the scene I was referring to- although I don't believe the word(s?) "Bwahahahaha" ever appeared in it. Though I suppose Merlin should get credit there for FINALLY making an effort to make peace.
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Post by Incapability on May 21, 2007 20:03:02 GMT
Ah yes, give him credit for that. That scene was so ... frustrating. I had almost banned it from my memory. And now it's back ...
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Post by tosca on May 21, 2007 20:16:00 GMT
Awh no, we've triggered the emergence of repressed memories, and worse, thrown 'bwahahaha' into the mix - can you ever forgive us?
Yes, that scene is totally frustrating. *remembers having a few less clumps of hair after reading it*
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Post by Incapability on May 21, 2007 20:20:28 GMT
Oh yes, it was like a shimmer of "Hey, Merlin has come to his senses!", and then ...
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Post by tosca on May 21, 2007 20:22:17 GMT
...a rather rude return to the general doom and gloom of, 'Ah, no he hasn't.'
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Post by Merlins~Rose on May 21, 2007 20:31:10 GMT
I haven't read the books, but what it appears to be is that Merlin did make an effort, it was Mab who couldn't understand she was doing everything wrong. So Merlin is not at fault for that one.
Wow ... I feel like I am the only one who is pro-Merlin on this board. LOL I'm unique!!!!!!
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Post by tosca on May 21, 2007 20:36:38 GMT
Yes, you are indeed unique and special!
Yes, Merlin made an effort to befriend her, but ultimately it was an empty effort. He wasn't prepared to make any changes to what he was doing, which was ultimately fighting on the opposite side of the war from her. And he must have known Mab wouldn't have backed down either - indeed, unlike Merlin, if she lost this war it would mean losing her whole existence, as well as the people and creatures of her own realm that she was fighting for. LOL, and I wouldn't say she was doing everything wrong. It was the notion about human emotions that she couldn't understand - and that really wasn't her fault, because she is not human.
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Post by himiko on May 21, 2007 20:41:18 GMT
Whilst I give Merlin credit for trying, I have to say the effort was ultimately futile- unless he was under the impression that Mab was only fighting this war to get at him, then he should have known that simply offering to "Make friends and then you can fade away and disappear forever, byeee!" was probably not going to work- although it's unlikely that it would have succeeded anyway, simply because Mab doesn't understand human emotions, I think he should have had more of a compromise than that- something more to bargain with- if his plan was to have any hope of succeeding.
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Post by Merlins~Rose on May 21, 2007 20:41:51 GMT
True, she is not human so she could not understand those emotions, but she had been alive for so long, she should have recognized them and learned by now how to interact with humans on their level. Merlin was weaned on human feelings so that is all he knows. You can't expect him to say "Hey, you are doing everything wrong but I'm going to fight with you anyway."
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Post by tosca on May 21, 2007 20:48:45 GMT
Well, she did learn about human emotions in the sense that she learnt to predict how they react, and etc. But if you have a pet or anything in your house, just because you've lived with it a while doesn't mean you can know exactly what it's thinking and what it wants. True, Merlin grew up with his human emotions, which is important, but he still had the capacity to make an effort to understand Mab. There was another nature in him somewhere - listening to it, embracing it, would have left him able to see both sides of the coin and judge accordingly, and probably more diplomatically. Another point about Mab interacting with humans - she did use to be kind and generous, and feel love, presumably as much as any other, in the days when the Old Ways were at their power. In a sense, she would have been more like a human herself then. It was only through fighting the people that attacked and slaughtered her followers that she became hardened - in order to save her people, she had to sacrifice a part of who she was, the most vulnerable part. So ultimately her actions, at first at least, were motivated by the right reasons. It's also kinda interesting that these are the days she is trying to reclaim, when she could love, and was loved in return.
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Post by Merlins~Rose on May 21, 2007 20:53:12 GMT
Ah, but he did try and make an effort. He went with ... forgot the horse's name ... but he went with him and he stayed at the castle and tried and learned the ways, but he had lost the only person in his life, and (not physically at the time, but mentally and emotionally) and being human, he could not make the change. He is not at fault for that. If I lost my mother and someone else tried teaching me their ways I would not want to do it either.
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Post by tosca on May 21, 2007 20:58:18 GMT
No, I'm not blaming him for wanting to go home, because that is natural, you're right, plus he was only seventeen or so then. But afterwards, when both sides of the war was ripping the country apart, and he was effectively the only person who might be able to see both sides of the argument, and reach some sort of balance, he chose against it because of revenge. I'm not saying it would be easy to forget that this person had supposedly let two people you loved die and etc, even if she had put all that was left of her into your creation - but, considering he's not the only person involved, it would have been less selfish.
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Post by Merlins~Rose on May 21, 2007 21:02:51 GMT
That brings up a point ... she created him, he didn't ask to be created. He did not want to do anything, he wanted to live his life without this internal and external struggle and wars. But circumstances pushed him into that life. Ambrosia, in her dieing breath, told him to listen to his heart, and that was exactly what he was doing. He saw that the Old Ways had to go, their time had expired, and now it was time for the New Ways. I'm not saying the New Ways were better because everyone can see the war and bloodshed that it brought. But to Merlin, in his heart he saw that it was time for the world to change. He had a hard time changing himself, and he knew this would be hard so he tried his best to make it easy. Merlin is really a victim of circumstance.
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