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Post by kamikazijoe on May 21, 2007 21:44:49 GMT
I dont think your convincing anyone, he was just as much a liar and manipulator as Mab, an both were workingfor what they thought was right. As said before, the only difference was their respective attidudes towards life. Mab caused/allowed certain deaths to occur for the sake of preserving herself and what she knew; Merlin singled handedly swayed the influence of a War, causing a near masacre in the name of destroying Mab and bringing the world over to the side of what he sees as good.
Its just an opinion though.
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Post by tosca on May 21, 2007 22:19:48 GMT
I agree. Both acted as they thought they should, both were trying to achieve an ends they saw to be right, and they both used flawed ways of achieving that end. As for Merlin not asking for any of it, no one asks to be brought into the world - he was stuck with his circumstances just like anyone else. If he had wanted not to be a part of any of it, he was given opportunities to back out and and not involve himself in any of it. He felt an obligation to intervene, just as Mab felt obliged to defend her people. Merlin may have been unwilling, but initially, Mab was as well. In her defence, there's a scene that was cut from the movie (we see the very beginning of it near the start of the film) where a dying follower of the Old Ways begs Mab to fight for her people. At this point, Mab says she isn't strong enough to change the tide of the war, and is reluctant to agree, but, eventually, she swears to her subject that she will stay and fight for the Old Ways. Merlin is bitter towards her because of the deaths of those he loved; Mab is bitter towards the world for slaughtering what she herself held dear. If you can justify Merlin's actions, you can't really condemn Mab for her part.
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Post by kamikazijoe on May 21, 2007 22:41:20 GMT
See, that scene just reinforces my point of view. Neither are in the right, it's just that Merlin is portrayed as the good guy, but there's really nothing to choose between the two. Except for the fact that Mab is clearly more attractive
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Post by tosca on May 21, 2007 22:46:23 GMT
Amen to that! ;D
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Post by himiko on May 22, 2007 17:18:48 GMT
Well, I don't think there's any argument on that point, certainly not from me! Also, she has the sexy voice.
But yes, I can but repeat what Joel and Tosca have said- both Mab and Merlin were fighting for what they believed in, both of them used questionable means in the cause of (what they believed to be) right. Whilst I can understand Merlin's anger at Mab to a degree, I don't agree that he is entirely justified in what he does- in many ways, he uses the same tactics as Mab does, his cause is just portrayed as being more "right". I've always thought that, with a minimal amount of tweaking, the whole story could have been reversed, and Merlin could have been shown as the bad guy, and Mab as the good.
I have to say though, that whilst Merlin does eventually stop letting his anger at Mab cloud his judgement, and he does seem to be trying to work towards peace, I've never understood why he automatically equates good with Christian. I mean, I know that he acknowledges that Uther and Constant were both bad kings, as well as Christians, but it seems as though he thinks that only a Christian could be a good king. Surely, if he had managed to find a good man who was also a Pagan, then everyone would have been happy? (see, I can work out compromises when I have to!)
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Post by Incapability on May 22, 2007 17:29:15 GMT
Ah, merry Merlin discussion!
*rushes to jump in with total off-topic post*
I'd like to go back to that communication thing, since both sides seem to think the other should have made more effort or should after years have been able to understand the other through experience and observation. I've been thinking about this and have come up with a paralel. *pats paralel protectively* If one stretches one's imagination a bit, it's like riding a horse.
*sees many puzzled glances and raised eyebrows*
No, really. Humans have observed horses for a loooong time. By now, they know a lot about them. I can tell, for example, what my horse likes to eat, what he doesn't. What excercises he likes, and what he hates. How he will react if I touch him in a certain spot. But I am far from knowing everything about him. I can predict his reaction in many situations, but there are always surprises - like him being scared to death by something I would not even have seen. We can communicate, to be sure. But we both had to learn it. I had to learn the signals, and he had to learn to understand them. We both had to make that effort, because neither can understand the other's "language". And yet there are things where communication fails us. I can't let him know why I am doing certain things, much as I would love to. And he can't let me know why he does certain things. He can, for example, be scared by something that the wind has made move and rattle. I will see that he is scared, usually even what of, but I will never be able to really understand the fear he must feel in that moment. I can only try to ease it away. It sometimes happens that I am annoyed by his fearfulness because I know that this rattling little thing won't harm him and that he has seen it a million times. That could be a little like Mab being annoyed by Merlin's humanity. But my annoyance doesn't make horsey's fear any less real, and all I can do is try and convinced him that he won't be killed. That takes a lot of trust, which took a lot of time and effort. If that trust is not there, a lot of communication can't work. And this is where Mab has sort of failed in Merlin's upbringing. She did not get him to trust her.
Ah well, this must have been thoroughly confusing and pointless, and I humbly apologise.
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Post by himiko on May 22, 2007 17:31:38 GMT
Not at all, it seems an excellent analysis to me.
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Post by tosca on May 22, 2007 18:01:22 GMT
Ah, that was such a pretty analogy. Really, it was. *huggles the analogy* You're right, she should have made Merlin trust her somehow... assuming she still remembers how to do that. I think she just has screwy ideas about how to achieve it - like letting him into the Forest of the Night... he was supposed to see the Old Ways in all its glory - instead it's 'aah, omg, you burn people in big wicker men!' It was supposed to help him understand what she was fighting for, instead it drove him away.
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Post by himiko on May 22, 2007 19:46:33 GMT
Hmmmmmm, yes, enforcing the idea of the two of them having completely different minds, being different species, basically.
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Post by Merlins~Rose on May 22, 2007 20:32:26 GMT
I think what I've been saying has been thought too deeply into. I never meant that Mab should know everything single thing about humans, but she should know the basics. For instance, if you 'allow' someone's mother to die, they will act angrily. So don't do it, solves that problem. If you allow one's surrogate mother to die, that person will be even more angry, do don't try it. I'm not saying she should know what Merlin is thinking at all times or how one thing will make him feel and that she should know the whole chain reaction. I'm saying that she has been around for a very long time, forcing someone to do something they don't want to doesn't make that person a happy camper. Then blackmailing them, or threatening them just worsens the situation. She should know that Merlin will not take kindly to that.
Also, it seems that everyone here agrees they were both at fault, and that they were doing the exact same thing to each other ... so why does everyone hate Merlin? If they did the same thing and were both at fault, shouldn't you feel the same towards Mab as you do Merlin?
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Post by himiko on May 22, 2007 20:40:21 GMT
Ah, but don't you want to just huggle Mab? I don't get that feeling with Merlin, I fear- although I daresay many do, and would probably agree with your point.
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Post by Merlins~Rose on May 22, 2007 20:41:35 GMT
Oh, don't get me wrong, I love Mab. She's kick ass person of the movie, but I love Merlin as well and feel that he's not getting the credit that is due to him.
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Post by tosca on May 22, 2007 20:46:28 GMT
Well, he might be alright-ish if he didn't kill Mab in the end... or 'let her die' as it were... and then there's the matter of the Helmet of Doom to be considered...
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Post by Merlins~Rose on May 22, 2007 20:51:27 GMT
Oh, so it's a case of bias-ness. Okay, now I understand. But still, if you were in his shoes (and not with the way you think of Mab now) would you have done anything differently?
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Post by himiko on May 22, 2007 20:58:52 GMT
Yes- I would never, ever have worn that helmet. Ever.
Other than that.... hmmmm, I'm not really sure...
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