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Post by Arwen17 on May 5, 2011 16:53:04 GMT
Is Merlin pagan or christian? Does he believe in any god? I doubt he's christian, but he's almost atheist in his lack of following any particular god.
What does he think about paganism, excluding Mab? He doesn't seem to mind Idath in the books, but at the same time all of their interactions are very neutral.
So here's what it seems to be: complete neutrality towards both paganism and christianity. And hatred towards Mab. But no love/devolution/worship towards anything?
So what does Merlin truly believe/believe in? (other than destroying Mab would be a good thing for Britain)
And to throw it in there: what does Mab truly believe in? (in herself lol?)
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Post by sleepyqueenie on May 5, 2011 18:33:16 GMT
Big questions Is Merlin pagan or christian? Neither, I would say. Athiest suits him. Being raised by Ambrosia, he 'listens to his heart'. He is driven by justice not by believe. His first encounter with christianity seems to be through Nimue. Maybe he grew a certain fondness for christianity because of her. His decision to take Nimue to Avalon does illustrate some believe in the Christian stories she's been telling him. On the other hand it could just have been practicle thinking. Mab wouldn't dare come to a convent. And Merlin was Arthur's teacher, who grew up to be a strong christian king. What does he think about paganism, excluding Mab?He hates the Mab-part obviously. I think he is rather indifferent towards the rest of it. But he does ask help from the Mountain King and Puddles. hmm then paganism is the dying world he sees around him and choses to ignore except when he is in trouble. Egoistic much. So here's what it seems to be: complete neutrality towards both paganism and christianity. And hatred towards Mab. yup But no love/devolution/worship towards anything? Only towards Nimue and his 'finding a good king' mission. I can't come up with anything else. So what does Merlin truly believe/believe in? (other than destroying Mab would be a good thing for Britain)The goodness of the people Mab 'killed' and their need to be avenged. I guess. In what sort of afterlife would he believe? what does Mab truly believe in? (in herself lol?) Of course
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Post by Arwen17 on May 5, 2011 22:22:50 GMT
In what sort of afterlife would he believe? Now thats something I can answer. In the books, it was clear he believed in the pagan reincarnation in summerland and I think Ambrosia did too. He probably asked her about death at some point during his childhood and she told him what she knew. Despite renouncing Mab, Ambrosia still has a pagan perspective on issues like death etc. because she was pagan before and she never did become a christian. Idath basically monitors and controls souls entering and leaving the world of the dead, but I dont know what else he really did. So I guess Merlin knew and believed Idath was definitely lord of the dead and took care of things like that, but he didnt see him as a god or anything? Merlin's pagan beliefs seem very matter of fact like "that's just how the afterlife operates and who runs it, doesn't mean I pay homage to anyone."
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Post by himiko on May 5, 2011 22:57:42 GMT
Yeah, I always had Merlin down as an atheist, rather than either a pagan or a Christian. He refers to the Christian god as "Your god" when talking to Nimue or the Father Abbott, and the tale of the Holy Grail as a lovely story. I don't think he was that fussed about what religion people followed- he just wanted Mab gone, and thought, presumably, that a Christian king would be the fastest way to that. Either that, or Christian kings were just easier to keep on side. Or an atheist king, I suppose, but Britain had that in Vortigern, and Merlin refers to him as "Mab's ally, and a tyrant"- don't think that's a working relationship that would have lasted, burning Nimue or not Arthur was Christian, but he was raised by Sir Ector, who, I believe, is one of Uther's followers, and almost certainly Christian (can't remember whether its mentioned or not), so that may have had more to do with his religion than anything Merlin taught him. Many of the knights seem hostile to Merlin, particularly when he joins Uther, and towards the end of Arthur's reign- they see him as a pagan, because he can use magic. Whilst he doesn't follow paganism, he doesn't seem to have done anything to make them think he might be Christian, either. As far as paganism goes, Merlin clearly believes in Mab and the others, they plainly exist, but he doesn't worship them. After all, Arthur, Uther, Nimue, Vortigern- they all see Mab, or Frik, or the Mountain King, etc.- but none of them "believe" in the Old Ways in the sense that they follow it, they seem to fear it more than anything. As for what Merlin believes comes after death, I can't remember whether it was explicitly stated in the books, but I'm thinking Arwen's explanation is a good one.
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Post by Mabforever on May 5, 2011 23:33:52 GMT
Is Merlin pagan or christian? Neither, I would say. Athiest suits him. Being raised by Ambrosia, he 'listens to his heart'. He is driven by justice not by believe.Yuppers I'd say that, he works with justice and right and wrong I think he sort of blames religion and people picking the wrong choices for whats wrong with the country. Though at the same time I think he reckons they both have they're good points but he'll support neither. Thanks to Uther pagans are being killed and we all know Mab is no saint. His first encounter with christianity seems to be through Nimue. Maybe he grew a certain fondness for christianity because of her.Yup probably I mean that's his only reason is it not? His decision to take Nimue to Avalon does illustrate some believe in the Christian stories she's been telling him. On the other hand it could just have been practicle thinking. Mab wouldn't dare come to a convent. Yes could be that or would she? But most importantly I reckon it would be the place Nimue felt safest. Where is it Mab heals Nimue's face? And Merlin was Arthur's teacher, who grew up to be a strong christian king. So Merlin taught Arthur christianity? Im a lil confused lol. What does he think about paganism, excluding Mab? He hates the Mab-part obviously. I agree but I dont think it's pure hate all the time it has more complex parts. I think he is rather indifferent towards the rest of it. But he does ask help from the Mountain King and Puddles. hmm then paganism is the dying world he sees around him and choses to ignore except when he is in trouble. Egoistic much.In general it's confusing. He hates Mab, likes Puddles, asks the rock for help and also he has a kid with the lady of the lake or whatever you want to call her. I dunno I mean he doesn't tell Jack to be Christian does he? So here's what it seems to be: complete neutrality towards both paganism and christianity. And hatred towards Mab. yup But no love/devolution/worship towards anything? Only towards Nimue and his 'finding a good king' mission. I can't come up with anything else.Totally agreed. what does Mab truly believe in? (in herself lol?) Of course There's nothing better
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Post by Arwen17 on May 6, 2011 5:43:17 GMT
Or an atheist king, I suppose, but Britain had that in Vortigern, and Merlin refers to him as "Mab's ally, and a tyrant"- don't think that's a working relationship that would have lasted, burning Nimue or not wasn't vortigern pagan? I mean he himself was very arrogant and decided he didn't really need gods, but I think he probably practiced anglo-saxon pagan ways? Mab is like the celtic/gaelic pagan ways. Mab = native original people of britain (already mixed with roman paganism) vortigern = invading anglo-saxons then lets see, I think the romans became christian thanks to the emporer of rome declaring that all romans would be christian instead of pagan from now on (edict of milan) and then I think the romano-british converted the anglo-saxons to christianity later on.
As for what Merlin believes comes after death, I can't remember whether it was explicitly stated in the books, but I'm thinking Arwen's explanation is a good one. I swear there was some quote in the books where Merlin mentions summerland and it seems like that's where he believes people go after they die. I'd have to read the books again to find it. Maybe I dreamed it up, which is quite possible with all the fanfic I read and write, but it was something like Merlin thought heaven was an absurd idea because summerland was obviously real because he'd been to Idath's land. It was a matter of fact with him that summerland was as real a place as mab's land of magic. Whereas something like heaven, he had no proof whether it actually existed or not cause he'd never seen it or been there or anything.
Mab wouldn't dare come to a convent. Yes could be that or would she? But most importantly I reckon it would be the place Nimue felt safest. Where is it Mab heals Nimue's face? I think she meant that Mab certainly wouldn't stay long at a convent. She isn't going to spend her holiday there. But I also agree that it was likely for Nimue's comfort more than anything. In the books, Nimue grows up in Avalon before she joins her father and vortigern at court. Plus, Avalon is an island of healers, they will heal anyone you bring them. That's why vortigern never attacked avalon, according to the books, he thought that just in case he might need a good healer one day and avalon had the best healers in the country.
And Merlin was Arthur's teacher, who grew up to be a strong christian king. So Merlin taught Arthur christianity? Im a lil confused lol. hell no, he taught the kid ethics, philosophy, economics, politics, etc. stuff that politicans need to rule a country well. makes sense to me. i think merlin has a point in this case. it takes more than religious devotion to rule a country properly.
Didn't Merlin get any politics training? I think ethics and philosophy studies were mentioned in the books, but it seems like he spent most of his time training to be a wizard. You don't need magic to rule a country, seriously. Unless you just intend to charm everyone into obedience or something.
Mordred was trained to fight and that makes sense for the war. Maybe merlin's magic training was really just combat training too? Mab's training tactics seem more interested in fighting than actual ruling of the country. Was she going to make all the decisions after they won the war? Somehow it seems like too much work for her lol. That's what she creates kings for. So they can rule and screw things up and she doesn't have to work until they screw things up. she seems to be creating more work for herself?
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Post by himiko on May 6, 2011 16:54:01 GMT
1) I suppose it depends as to how you define "religion", Vortigern may well have been born into, and brought up with, pagan Saxon religion/s, but he himself says that he doesn't believe in magic (and refers to Christians as "they", just to cancel that out, too), and that the only thing he believes in is himself. Thus, I'd say Vortigern was an atheist, due to his current lack of belief, much like I consider myself agnostic, despite having been christened in the Church of England.
2) Now you've said that about the summerland, it rings a bell... it sounds about right, anyway.
3) Well, we know Mab came to Avalon- twice, infact, and three times, if we take the book as canon (in the scene where Father Abbott tells Nimue that Arthur is coming home, and she should be with Merlin, the book claims it's Mab disguised as Father Abbott). But its somewhere with good healers, where Nimue will feel safe, and Vortigern won't attack. It makes sense for Merlin to bring her there.
4) Yeah, I think Merlin was his tutor in "kingish" stuff. I suspect that a lot of the "king" training would have come after he had gained more control over his magic, but then, it might have been that Mab would have wanted him to charm them using magic, like the spell she put on Mordred to make men follow him (in the books). I suspect Merlin picked up a lot of political stuff during his time in Vortigern and Uther's courts, as well as the lessons he learned from Frik, and before he came to the Land of Magic.
As far as Mordred goes, I know what you mean about being trained to fight- that spell wasn't supposed to last beyond a few months. Perhaps Mab wants to get to power quickly, out of desperation, and so is rushing; its possible that Mordred is being trained in politics and such off screen, though.
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Post by sleepyqueenie on May 6, 2011 20:10:32 GMT
I guess Merlin knew and believed Idath was definitely lord of the dead and took care of things like that, but he didnt see him as a god or anything? Merlin's pagan beliefs seem very matter of fact like "that's just how the afterlife operates and who runs it, doesn't mean I pay homage to anyone."That really sounds like Merlin! Argh, I can’t find the books. the knights seem hostile to Merlin, particularly when he joins Uther, and towards the end of Arthur's reign- they see him as a pagan, because he can use magic. Very true. Also Merlin’s outfit screams pagan Mab wouldn't dare come to a convent. Yes could be that or would she? But most importantly I reckon it would be the place Nimue felt safest. Where is it Mab heals Nimue's face?I said that could have been Merlin’s theory for taking her there, not that it would work I think she meant that Mab certainly wouldn't stay long at a convent. She isn't going to spend her holiday there lol! And Merlin was Arthur's teacher, who grew up to be a strong christian king. So Merlin taught Arthur christianity? NO just that if Merlin had disliked a very Christian way of thinking he would have kicked it out of young Arthur while teaching him. But as himiko pointed out a Christian king would be the fastest way to drive Mab out. also he has a kid with the lady of the lake or whatever you want to call her. I dunno I mean he doesn't tell Jack to be Christian does he?Not that I know of, but that movie I do not know by heart. As for the kid, being raped doesn’t count as supporting the old ways. wasn't vortigern pagan?vortigern = invading anglo-saxons*Taking my Merlin encyclopedia* Vortigern: king of Britain whose reign preceded Ambrosius in the mid-fifth century. He invited Hengist to Britain to rid the land of Saxon’s, but Hengist in turn conquered Kent.Sounds like he wasn’t a Saxon. the spell she put on Mordred to make men follow him (in the books). That so explains the sheepishness of those knights at Arthur’s court! ;D I suspect Merlin picked up a lot of political stuff during his time in Vortigern and Uther's courts, as well as the lessons he learned from Frik, and before he came to the Land of Magic. Agreed.
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Post by Arwen17 on May 6, 2011 21:04:10 GMT
wasn't vortigern pagan?vortigern = invading anglo-saxons*Taking my Merlin encyclopedia* Vortigern: king of Britain whose reign preceded Ambrosius in the mid-fifth century. He invited Hengist to Britain to rid the land of Saxon’s, but Hengist in turn conquered Kent. Sounds like he wasn’t a Saxon.
I don't know about historical vortigern, but the vortigern in the merlin books was definitely saxon.
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Post by sleepyqueenie on May 6, 2011 21:15:12 GMT
okay, I believe you ;D
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Post by Mabforever on May 6, 2011 23:51:08 GMT
Or an atheist king, I suppose, but Britain had that in Vortigern, and Merlin refers to him as "Mab's ally, and a tyrant"- don't think that's a working relationship that would have lasted, burning Nimue or not yes it would have Vortigern and Mab were true love....yes they were dont pop my bubble or I'll bite you. wasn't vortigern pagan?He says he doesn't believe in Mab but why do I recall reading that Vortigern was pagan. I mean he himself was very arrogant and decided he didn't really need gods, but I think he probably practiced anglo-saxon pagan ways?Think so. Mab is like the celtic/gaelic pagan ways. Mab = native original people of britain (already mixed with roman paganism) vortigern = invading anglo-saxonsOhh right I get what you mean now. That makes sense then lets see, I think the romans became christian thanks to the emporer of rome declaring that all romans would be christian instead of pagan from now on (edict of milan) and then I think the romano-british converted the anglo-saxons to christianity later on.That I'll just have to agree with Im not good with all the technical stuff. As for what Merlin believes comes after death, I can't remember whether it was explicitly stated in the books, but I'm thinking Arwen's explanation is a good one. I swear there was some quote in the books where Merlin mentions summerland and it seems like that's where he believes people go after they die. I'd have to read the books again to find it. Maybe I dreamed it up, which is quite possible with all the fanfic I read and write, but it was something like Merlin thought heaven was an absurd idea because summerland was obviously real because he'd been to Idath's land. It was a matter of fact with him that summerland was as real a place as mab's land of magic. Whereas something like heaven, he had no proof whether it actually existed or not cause he'd never seen it or been there or anything.Well as I say I dont have the books. But that rings a very faint bell with me ...Summerland. Interesting either it's been in a fic or we've been talking about it in another convo. Confusing stuff, confusing stuff. Meh I'm just gonna blindly trust you :L Mab wouldn't dare come to a convent. Yes could be that or would she? But most importantly I reckon it would be the place Nimue felt safest. Where is it Mab heals Nimue's face? I think she meant that Mab certainly wouldn't stay long at a convent. She isn't going to spend her holiday there. Lmao right! Gotcher no she probably wouldn't go into that legendary pink bikini and go to avalon. ;D But I also agree that it was likely for Nimue's comfort more than anything. In the books, Nimue grows up in Avalon before she joins her father and vortigern at court. Plus, Avalon is an island of healers, they will heal anyone you bring them. That's why vortigern never attacked avalon, according to the books, he thought that just in case he might need a good healer one day and avalon had the best healers in the country.dum dum DUM!!!! That makes Vortigern sound not stupid thats impossible See the books give a lot more away about the characters. I wish I could read them. Majorly gutted. And Merlin was Arthur's teacher, who grew up to be a strong christian king. So Merlin taught Arthur christianity? Im a lil confused lol. hell no, he taught the kid ethics, philosophy, economics, politics, etc. stuff that politicans need to rule a country well. makes sense to me. i think merlin has a point in this case. it takes more than religious devotion to rule a country properly.huh okay okay, so then Arthur wasn't Christian? Or if he was who taught him it? Didn't Merlin get any politics training? I think ethics and philosophy studies were mentioned in the books, but it seems like he spent most of his time training to be a wizard. Yeah Mab was very specific. ;D You don't need magic to rule a country, seriously. Unless you just intend to charm everyone into obedience or something.yeshy Mordred was trained to fight and that makes sense for the war. Maybe merlin's magic training was really just combat training too?Mmmm, I dunno I thought they were taught different things but I may be getting Mab and Frik's teachings mixed up with Ambrosia's when it comes to Merlin. Mab's training tactics seem more interested in fighting than actual ruling of the country. Was she going to make all the decisions after they won the war? Somehow it seems like too much work for her lol. That's what she creates kings for. So they can rule and screw things up and she doesn't have to work until they screw things up. she seems to be creating more work for herself?Hmmm, well I was gonna say she could have been making the decision for them but yeah it may be too much work. And yes it seems like she creates more work for herself so keeping on that again, what does Mab do? I mean despite being told what she apparently does as far as I see she turns up looking sexy and bitchy then schemes. She is fighting yeah I get that but on my Mab calculator it appears Mab spends most of her time doing...well I have no idea. The sooth sayer says she hardly goes to her people, she rarely looks in on Merlin's lesson, she's apparently dropped having as much sex and the chick doesn't need to sleep. I have no idea what she is doing.
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Post by Arwen17 on May 7, 2011 14:00:59 GMT
He says he doesn't believe in Mab but why do I recall reading that Vortigern was pagan. that's why mab picked his people and got them to invade britain to get rid of king constant. he wasn't specifically her pagan, his people had different pagan gods, but at least they weren't christian. but as we have seen vortigern will murder you regardless if you're christian or pagan. he doesn't care that much about it.
but mab is able to waltz right into his castle and incampment. if she tried that with uther or another christian, they'd probably attack without question.
huh okay okay, so then Arthur wasn't Christian? Or if he was who taught him it? yes he was definitely christian, but a more relaxed guy. i wonder if mordred had come in peace, arthur might have let him stay.
I assume sir ector, his foster-father, was christian. so there ya go.
Hmmm, well I was gonna say she could have been making the decision for them but yeah it may be too much work. And yes it seems like she creates more work for herself so keeping on that again, what does Mab do? I mean despite being told what she apparently does as far as I see she turns up looking sexy and bitchy then schemes. She is fighting yeah I get that but on my Mab calculator it appears Mab spends most of her time doing...well I have no idea. The sooth sayer says she hardly goes to her people, she rarely looks in on Merlin's lesson, she's apparently dropped having as much sex and the chick doesn't need to sleep. I have no idea what she is doing.
she plays pool and poker with the guys downtown. *grin* and watches episodes of Charmed the rest of the time.
I suppose she's enjoying her long life with recreational activities? but what could those be, besides sex?
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Post by himiko on May 7, 2011 23:19:18 GMT
LOL, mabforever, I was referring to Merlin and Vortigern being a working relationship that wouldn't work out (though I'm sure ye know my opinions on MabV, too XD), despite both having a "lack of belief", and thus a sort of unbiased standpoint on religion. It's just, V's standpoint is to kill the crap out of everyone, without religious bias Arwen17, Mab does consider going to try and bargain with Uther in the books, when she thinks Vortigern won't be reasonable (in the throne room seen), but then when Vortigern agrees to give her Merlin if she helps him, she stays to bargain with him- I agree he's her first choice of the two kings, when it comes to trying to make a deal or alliance, due to his not being Christian, but I think she would have gone to Uther if neccessary. You're right, though, it might have necessitated somewhat more subtlety than riding in through the front gates and announcing herself as Queen of the Old Ways. Another thought on the way she trains Merlin and Mordred to be king- her approach with Mordred is very different from her approach with Merlin, she's much closer to him, and much more involved in his upbringing and lessons, from what we see. It might be that, refusing to leave anything to chance, and because Mordred is very young, and very fixated on killing (which, again, she knows from her experiences with Vortigern, doesn't always end well for her), she does plan to be the power behind the throne, and make all the decisions? We don't see Merlin's lessons on politics, etc. but he may well have been taught them in time off screen (after all, clearly a lot of time passes, he learns a ton of magic, and advances to the second stage of wizardry, so its entirely possible that other stuff was in there), or left till later. Of course, the same could be argued for Mordred, I suppose. As for what Mab does in her spare time... hmmmmm... well, I suppose her planning may well take a fair amount of time. I imagine she spends quite a lot of time watching events unfold in the mortal world from that pile of crystals she sees Mordred's death in. Don't know what else, though...
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Post by Arwen17 on May 7, 2011 23:30:28 GMT
Arwen17, Mab does consider going to try and bargain with Uther in the books, when she thinks Vortigern won't be reasonable (in the throne room seen), but then when Vortigern agrees to give her Merlin if she helps him, she stays to bargain with him- I agree he's her first choice of the two kings, when it comes to trying to make a deal or alliance, due to his not being Christian, but I think she would have gone to Uther if neccessary. You're right, though, it might have necessitated somewhat more subtlety than riding in through the front gates and announcing herself as Queen of the Old Ways.really? *runs to check book* woah you're right! I'd forgotten about that. Mab really did consider going to Uther. How in the world would she have pulled that off? And it wouldn't it be detrimental to her to help Uther because he would bring christianity to the people? Unless she thought she could influence him into some love or mercy for paganism. she does plan to be the power behind the throne, and make all the decisions?behind every great man is an even greater woman As for what Mab does in her spare time... hmmmmm... well, I suppose her planning may well take a fair amount of time. I imagine she spends quite a lot of time watching events unfold in the mortal world from that pile of crystals she sees Mordred's death in. Don't know what else, though... does it come with TiVo? can she fast-forward, record, and rewind events in her crystalline TV? Perhaps she does a lot of sneaking around and setting things up too?? or maybe sends Frik to do all that. Big Important Question: Is Mab still having sex in her free time? because you know sex is fun (and fun to watch) and there's a rumor if you go too long without it the vagina will close up. *cackles*
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Post by sleepyqueenie on May 9, 2011 19:14:51 GMT
she does plan to be the power behind the throne, and make all the decisions? Absolutely!
Spare time: more scheming, using crystals to build up her strength, watching many other characters have sex cause that is essential to her plans. Take a long bath, let her hair dry for hours whilst lying on a rock, watching small pixies tip toe around her, order them to braid her hair and do her make-up. does it come with TiVo? can she fast-forward, record, and rewind events in her crystalline TV? Yeah, of course she can! She is the Mistress of All Magic.
Perhaps she does a lot of sneaking around and setting things up too?? or maybe sends Frik to do all that. Definitely Frik.
Big Important Question: Is Mab still having sex in her free time? Hah in the end it all comes down to Mab’s sex-life! I fear she is too stressed out for most of the film to be in the mood for sex.
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